Can we stqrt calling it what is is?

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

It's not exit, it's independence. Alternatively we should call it sovereignty or self rule.

The referendum should never have happened

i agree we should have never ever been in this position in the first place.

EU soil creep.

Well I know the advantages of remaining, as Leaver, how come youdont know the advantages of Leaving as a remainer? Surely you did your research?

Sorry but no one voted - or chose to join the EU in its current incarnation.
Correct me if I am wrong, but John Major agreed to the Maastricht Treaty, which set up the EU. I recall that he won a rather surprising election victory in 1992. So how come 'no-one voted' because clearly someone must have put him in.

You can certainly say that 'no-one voted' for a hard Brexit, because May hasn't yet won an election, and the Conservative manifesto talked about a commitment to the Single Market. There was no question on the Referendum ballot paper of 'If Leave which of these option would you prefer?'

Please tell us what the disadvantages are - I myself have children working in scientific research - I expect them to leave the country. That may be advantageous for them, but given that this is one of the few areas in which the country is strong, how will hobbling scientific research help this country?

Ditto, with a relative who is a medical doctor - will it be to the NHS's advantage if she goes to Australia, which is certainly likely?

Of course I do! In my opinion there are precisely one other than this ridiculous amorphous nonsense about 'sovereignty' and immigration (which isn't a bad thing) there isn't anything to be said.
Nothing that was given as an advantage for Leave would benefit me. I quite like having rights in the workplace.

If we end up with Hammond's low tax economy due to Brexit, how do we fund the NHS?

Oh that's right, we privatise it.

You can call it what you like, as I can I- and I shall continue to call it a fucking disaster.

I recall the advantage of Leaving was £350 million a week for the NHS. I look forward to seeing even a quarter of that.

I quite like having rights in the workplace

Thats good you will find it was our Labour party who set many standards for working people.

Correct me if I am wrong, but John Major agreed to the Maastricht Treaty, which set up the EU

The country was not given a vote on closer union and the EU is not what people voted for when they voted for business.

If people believed that promise they were, quite frankly, idiots.

Oh no, I can see if you thought that was true Perigrina why you must be let down now.

I dont know anyone in RL who ever thought that.

We didn't need a referendum on Maastricht. Or indeed closer union. There was a party against that.
It may have been Labour that started employment rights but it is the EU that has protected them and taken them forward (just watch the Tories get rid of them in the interest of business as soon as they can).

Well I know the advantages of remaining, as Leaver, how come youdont know the advantages of Leaving as a remainer? Surely you did your research?

The irony of that comment is hysterical.

There are no advantages of leaving which outweigh the consequences of doing so- that's rather the point.

Turkeys voting for Christmas is spot on. When the job losses hit I wonder if Leave voters will volunteer themselves first .

the EU is not what people voted for when they voted for business.

The Tory Manifesto of 2015 had a commitment to the Single Market. Cameron surprised himself by winning the election; by that token you can argue that the current EU set up was what people voted for, or he would have lost. He expected that the result would be Remain, and that this would shut the Eurosceptics in his party up.

Nothing will shut the eurosceptics up. They'll be moaning about the death penalty soon (if my Eurosceptic MP is anything to go by!).

Oh no, I can see if you thought that was true Perigrina why you must be let down now.

Did I say that I believed that? I was answering your statement Well I know the advantages of remaining, as Leaver, how come you dont know the advantages of Leaving as a remainer? Surely you did your research?

This was the one clear commitment of the Leave Camp, which as I recall the Leave Leaders immediately reneged on within less than 24 hours. Other commitments were ill defined e.g. what exactly does 'Take back control' promise?

What is being discussed here? Is it whether leaving will be a disaster, or is it whether the terms of leaving (eg common market) have changed?

We don't know if it will be a disaster. Even Mark Carney is flip flopping on it. What is the point of putting energy into trying to convince people it will all be a disaster.

Most political decisions have upsides for some and downsides for others. That will most likely be the outcome. A mixture of good and bad, ot a blanket success or a blanket disaster.

UK has always had an ambivalent relationship with the EU, so Brexit will clarify things in that respect. As for the economy, who knows. It depends a lot on Trump as well as what happens in all these forthcoming elections in France etc.

And domestic issues like NHS need to be decided domestically. If you don't want it privatised, don't vote tory

What is the point of putting energy into trying to convince people it will all be a disaster

None. They'll see it for themselves soon enough.

Btw this isn't like 'most political decisons', it's quite unlike any UK political decision that has been made in our lifetime.

From Hammond's recent interview, the 'good' will be for businesses and corporations who benefit from low tax and low regulations. The 'bad' will be for the general population who will suffer from the loss of GDP, public spending cuts, the fall of the pound, inflation, loss of employment rights and social protection.

Most political decisions have upsides for some and downsides for others. That will most likely be the outcome. A mixture of good and bad, not a blanket success or a blanket disaster.

But almost always with a painful period of readjustment.

If you don't want [NHS] privatised, don't vote tory.
Agreed, but at the same time, there needs to be a proper debate as to what sort of health service we do want, and how much we are prepared to pay. This debate isn't happening - bits and pieces are being privatised by stealth. At the same time, some things like type 2 diabetes are costing the NHS, but as individuals we could do more to help ourselves on this specific illness.

There is no point in trying to put energy into convincing the most ardent leavers it will be a disaster as they are fully prepared to take whatever economic hit is necessary to "take back control". I'm sure the young people in this country, whose future is really affected by this, will be eternally grateful to them.

Maybe everyone will find out its a disaster. Or maybe it won't be a disaster. Or maybe it will bad short term, good long term, or maybe it will be just different (not better not worse).

The point is, why say it IS a disaster, when we don't know. Even economists and experts don't know....

I am going to take a wait and see approach, coupled with a 'talk to my MP to register my view if I don't like a decision' approach.

Otherwise I might as well just be a journalist with an agenda designed to get a reaction

May-bee bay-bee, you say?

Many of us can see that it is already a disaster. That you sadly can't see the writing on the wall doesn't mean it's not there, in flashing neon lights.

Peregrina, I agree re the NHS and debating things properly. And re people taking personal responsibility. So it was simplistic to say 'don't vote tory if you want to keep the NHS'.

But I suppose I was saying that there are things we cans till influence - domestically - regardless of what happens in Brexit. I fear there is a bit of a fatalistic reaction - 'we're doomed' sort of thing going on, which isn't helpful (maybe stemming from the same place as 'not taking personal responsibly mentality')

Cote d'Azur - in what way is it already a disaster?