Can we stqrt calling it what is is?

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

It's not exit, it's independence. Alternatively we should call it sovereignty or self rule.

There are no managers in the EU 27 countries working together is not a management structure. The EU was more like Orwells Animal Farm a most unsuccessful social experiment. Before you disagree take a look at the Euro, the Greek economy, the Italian banking crisis or the poverty in Spain.

FWIW, I used to be a Europhile.
But over the years I have observed how the EU project has changed from the notion of a common market into a full on political federal state..., but without proper democratic checks and balances.

I have seen how different nations have a significantly different culture and from that understood how difficult it is to form a cohesive federal state. In short I have concluded it is not workable.

Interesting I was a Europhile too way back when but I would never have supported the EU project in this firm, it's just been continual mission creep really there won't be an end so best to just Leave. Ever closer union has failed repeatedly world wide and has failed again here.

In short I have concluded it is not workable.
Gisela Stuart's belief too. What do you put in its place? Gisela Stuart has been mighty quiet on this issue since last June.

So far the only 'plan' is a) a tax haven for the wealthy or b) somehow revitalise the empire.

How workable are those? b) is a non starter. a) is realistic, but not what people voted for.

Ever closer union has failed repeatedly world wide and has failed again here
It hasn't failed again here. Since the Brexit vote, other member states have become more committed to the EU. Even Marine Le Pen has stopped talking about Frexit.

I don't get the whole 'free from the EU' rhetoric
Me neither. But it is a nice vague way of expressing a Leave victory, because, let's face it, nothing has been won at all.

And in 10 years time, the UK, assuming it still exists, will be clamouring to get back in, having found that all these wonderful global trade deals either didn't exist, or came at too high a price. Too high a price not necessarily being monetary - it could be India wanting a substantial quota of visas or visa free access for its citizens.

it will possibly become a stronger union now the pesky Brits are leaving.

Great.
I hope it does - we were always the awkward member tbh.

Just because people voted Leave, does not mean they want the EU project to fail out of spite.
Similarly, I'm sure most remain voters aren't spiteful enough to hope Britain fails either.

A coterie of Leavers like Farage do want the EU to fail. I will enjoy seeing his discomfort if May fails to force a deal and suddenly he's out of his MEPs job, and no one has negotiated his pension rights. He might have to get a proper job.

I want this country to succeed. However I don't see that happening as part of an organisation that focusses on process rather then output. Hence why I call it sovereignty not Brexit.

I do see big changes in Europe once we leave. They will loose one of the biggest net contributors. So they will have to become much more responsible as to how they hand out other peoples money. They will become accountable. I suspect much of the gravy train will be derailed.. Which is a pity as we could have stayed if they did those things.

A hardcore of europhobe zealots want the EU to fail, I'm sure.

Some (many? I don't know) Leavers think it was a failing project on its current trajectory - I am one of these people.
But I do not want it to fail, that is pure, unadulterated spite.

A hardcore of europhile zealots want Brexit Britain to fail, but I'm sure most want both the EU & Britain to thrive as friends.

Farage is a man of pure unadulterated spite. He won't be here if/when things get tough - he will be feathering his nest elsewhere.

And as is repeatedly pointed out - Farage does not speak for most Leavers.

He served his purpose by getting us the vote on EU membership - now he is irrelevant, as are UKIP.

Farage may not speak for most Leavers but unfortunately, given the exposure he has, that's the impression which is given. If you don't want him to be seen to speak for Leavers then start telling him to STFU. Write to the BBC and complain about the amount of times his ugly mug appears on TV for a starter.

I feel the EU is very much cart before horse and this has been proved to me - through the recent crisis it has faced ie - the refugee/migrant crisis.

Merkels naive call to go to Germany has shown this to me. I would have liked to have seen far more contingency planning and cohesion, it seems from a loftier - EU ideology POV its OK to throw this generation under the bus and those for decades to come, until eventually its one great land mass under one rule.

I don't agree with this, I don't agree with putting people in danger, allowing people to be killed etc. I think its wrong. I think the EU is wrong.
I want the EU to reform itself and quick for the sake of the people, I think all countries need to get a vote on the EU as is - and the ever closer union, I dont think its healthy to have all the angst that exists there at all.

Why?

I don't expect Muslims to continuously affirm that Islamic terrorists do not speak for them.

Why should I, as a leaver, be expected to continually affirm that Farage does not speak for me??

It's tiresome enough having to do it constantly on mn when you and others repeatedly insist that Leavers are rabid Farage/UKIP supporters, despite being told in no uncertain terms that this is not the case.

My last post was in response to Peregrina btw.

Peregrina, I am no Farage fan but where is he right now?
Did you know he is the one who suggested Mulloch - become the EU ambassador to the EU, why do you think little old Blighty is so prevalent on Trumps agenda with all the issues that man is facing right now?

You may hate Trump you may hate Farage even more - the bottom line is - America is strengthening our hand by being very vocal in supporting us.
Which is a good thing. Unless you want it all to fail? Unless you are happy with us being at the back of Americas queue?

Semi I feel generally some remainers on these boards are big fans of putting people in boxes, I have read too many times that the Leave voter is a rich daily mail reading baby boomer and so on.

Clinging to something that makes sense to them, in these dark times. Its so mind blowing they just cant make sense of things any other way. Leavers - rabid - DM reading Farage supporters, or Baby boomer Daily mail readers and of course all of us are vacuous - racists and thick and stupid.

Distance yourselves from him and maybe we remainers might be more sympathetic.

I couldn't give a toss if Remainers are sympathetic or not tbh.
I do however care when they are offensive and generalising in their spite.