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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 10/01/2017 09:23

Steve hawkes @steve_hawkes
Tories: “Corbyn’s chaotic relaunch hasn’t made it past breakfast time." One Labour MP "If Jeremy had two brains he'd be twice as stupid."

People liked Corbyn because he 'stuck to his principles and had integrity'. Difficult to say that now with his ever shifting position on Brexit.

OP posts:
tiggytape · 10/01/2017 09:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 10/01/2017 09:43

Woman12345 I honestly don't know if that was true about Trump or not. The research behind the story apparently comes in part from someone related to the Financial Times. So there's a potential degree of credibility there.

The thing is there has always been this big question over Trump's tax return and just how he came back from bankruptcy that remains unanswered. The assertion that he was simply very clever to avoid paying tax doesn't quite cut it.

This should have been what the press went after last year before the election but they were too bloody gutless. It could be the free press's ultimate failing.

I do think the same pattern seem to be there with both Trump and Farage too. Farage has had connections with the same people for some time and there are these reoccurring questions over Russia and money laundering. First his aide admits it and then Farage votes against measures to stop it and the EU has a ongoing investigation into UKIP over it. Farage has been tied to Bannon at Brietbart for a while and of course there is Banks links to Russia. It needs closer inspection... It won't. Instead Farage will get more airtime and column inches and become increasingly untouchable. What is it about a level of fame that makes people turn away?

Something stinks. It's just exactly where the stink is coming from and the scale and significance I'm not sure about.

The trouble is I don't think that the US / UK media will have the guts to follow it up nor do I think Congress / British Parliament will ask the questions they should do, especially since many Republicans are comprised or it simply suits them as politicians to let it go.

Utterly depressing as there does seem to be something there that needs to be looked at as a matter of transparency and accountability.

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usuallydormant · 10/01/2017 10:01

But it is not just about convincing just Merkel, there are 27 countries to convince. So even if Merkel was happy to allow the UK to have full single market access without FOM, it doesn't really matter. Countries with higher rates of emigration than Germany can still veto any such agreement and so far the 27 have been surprisingly aligned on this.

The Swiss situation should be of a lot more interest to the UK than it currently seems to be. Yes, a very different country but also one with a very high level of immigration and a relatively low unemployment level. They need immigrants both for high level jobs (e.g. big Pharma) and also to work in the lower paid jobs that the Swiss are not keen on (care assistants etc). They are also in Schengen.

They voted to curb FOM through an initiative run by the equivalent of UKIP (Swiss People's Party) and it very narrowly passed, just like Brexit. The political establishment has spent the last 2 years trying to find a way to keep EU privileges (the research funding loss was a big shock) and have come up with the following fudge, which has yet to be approved by the EU.

^The immigration legislation passed by parliament on Friday contains measures to prioritize Swiss job-seekers over those from EU countries, such as requiring employers to post vacant positions at local unemployment offices before advertising them elsewhere. The penalty for not doing so can be up to CHF40,000 ($38,900). Employers must also invite candidates who meet their criteria and who are registered at the unemployment office for an interview. Employers must then communicate their final hiring decision to the unemployment office.
The new measures will be restricted to parts of Switzerland and job sectors with unemployment rates higher than the average, currently at 3.3%.^

Ironically the areas with the highest unemployment were more likely to reject the initial vote...

www.swissinfo.ch/eng/new-immigration-law-clears-final-hurdle/42769316?srg_sm_campaign=general&srg_sm_medium=soc&srg_sm_source=sflow

AFAIK, the EU has not yet approved it. How would this kind of fudge go down with the UK electorate? The Swiss People's Party are not happy.

Mistigri · 10/01/2017 10:33

Sorry, no time to read the thread this morning, but if you haven't seen this it's a must read (particularly the comments, which are as is often the case in the FT at least as illuminating as the article to which they are attached).

Hope you don't hit a paywall.

app.ft.com/content/06f4a4c8-96d1-3f8a-aa90-20bdc0e51f46

InformalRoman · 10/01/2017 10:38

Re Trump and his financial affairs - he never has made his tax returns public has he? Despite many promises in the run up to the election that they would be revealed. Mitt Romney was a big advocate for Trump to follow US election protocol and go public - which could be why Trump seems to hold him in such contempt.

www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-12/time-for-donald-trump-to-release-his-tax-returns

It would be really interesting to see just what Trump's financial position is - I suspect he's financially vulnerable.

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 11:23

"if Jeremy had two brains he'd be twice as stupid." Grin

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 11:42

"The trouble is I don't think that the US / UK media will have the guts to follow it up" : the NYT seems to have been silenced since Nov 10th(?) when Trump Stalined them. Anne Wintour 'had to apologise' for criticising him. Russian opposition journalists have a high mortality rate.

I still think that weirdly, cultural capital and protest (a la hollywood, rappers, et al), could be part of the way to go with opposition. One Meryl Streep speech has reached many parts that democrats politicians can't.

Interesting on Switzerland, dormant
UK govt seems to have neither the pragmatism, expertise or intelligence to negotiate their way out of paper bag.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2017 12:50

Corbyn clearly has neither the ability or interest to be an effective Leader of the Opposition in Parliament.
Which his party and his country deperately need.

However, it is a mistake - even considering his 2 grade "E"s ! - to write that all off to stupidity.
The worldview of Corbyn and his supporters is quite different to that of the rest of us.

Corbyn has very clear goals and is executing them one by one.
Unfortunately those aren’t anything to do with the country, but about his supporters establishing control over the Labour Party for the future.

They think that some time, maybe after 2025, mainstream politics will have left the UK in ever worsening poverty & chaos. So they believe the old IRA slogan:
"Our time shall come"
either in a GE, or just taking over to rescue the country after a government collapse.

Farage, Nuttall, Banks & their ilk share this dream.
I hope we don't see the far right & far left fight it out in that dystopic future.

So we need any Brexit that works.
We need May to perform out of her skin
< looks around hopefully to see TM astride a unicorn >

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2017 12:51

Oops, just realise some pp may be trauamatised by an image of TM molesting a helpless fantasy creature.

PattyPenguin · 10/01/2017 13:08

Indeed Choc - "creative destruction" is espoused as a route to power by both left and right.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2017 13:13

May is keeping quiet about her plans for Brexit for a mixture of reasons:

  • They are so vague atm she'd be crucified domestically.
    Not entirely her fault, because she had to start from zero and adding the 3 Brexiteers made it very sub-zero

  • There is a very faint chance that some catastrophe will radically change EU policy, e.g. banking crash, 9/11-scale terrorist attacks on the EU. Possibly also leading to new leaders in major countries.
    This is the favourite wet dream of some extreme Brexiteers, but is very low probability.
    It would also hurt the UK badly, but politically far far better than decline while the main EU nations prosper.

  • Most likely deal - since immigration has been allowed to become a red line - is that the UK will be hit hard wrt exports, especially financial services. So the economy is hit hard, tax take falls, public services & benefits must be cut even more.
    Restricting information for as long as possible makes it much easier to see blame falls on the EU, for not changing its rules, rather than the Leavers / Tories for ignoring pre-ref warnings this would happen.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2017 13:17

There is also the possibility that she is delusional about the power of the UK in negotiations, but if that is the case we are totally fcuked.

prettybird · 10/01/2017 13:23

Restricting information for as long as possible makes it much easier to see blame falls on the EU, for not changing its rules, rather than the Leavers / Tories for ignoring pre-ref warnings this would happen.

.....and there's the nub of it Angry

NotDavidTennant · 10/01/2017 13:49

^However, it is a mistake - even considering his 2 grade "E"s ! - to write that all off to stupidity.
The worldview of Corbyn and his supporters is quite different to that of the rest of us.

Corbyn has very clear goals and is executing them one by one.
Unfortunately those aren’t anything to do with the country, but about his supporters establishing control over the Labour Party for the future.^

I'm not convinced. McDonnell, Milne and Lansman have very clear goals, no doubt, but I'm increasingly certain that Corbyn himself is just a nice-but-dim patsy in all this.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2017 14:35

Corbyn & his supporters must be considered as a job lot.
He may indeed be just a handpuppet, or he may be of equal status to Mcdonnell & co.
It's like the old game of Kremlin-watching, deducing who had real power and who was merely a propped-up corpse: The Kremlin as a whole was still important.

What matters is the sum total that this group achieves; they are clearly focused on gaining power over Labour atm, not using the power of the Official Opposition to actually press the government politically and influence policy.
The only effective, organised opposition to the government is the SNP, which is too regional to have sufficient clout.

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 14:49

As posters were saying on this thread last night:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-northern-ireland-dup-votes-peace-process-a7519106.html

whatwouldrondo · 10/01/2017 14:51

I think the majority of us agree that Russia /Putin are using all the tools of propaganda / technology at their disposal to influence western politics in their favour, and their aim in achieving that goal is to empower the right. So what are they up to here. www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-embassy-in-uk-london-theresa-may-pepe-the-frog-twitter-profile-a7517651.html%3Famp?client=safari

It is either a bit unsubtle, the Nazis / racists / alt right do not have the same legitimacy / power here as they do in Trumps America so using it's symbols to undermine May is likely to backfire, and be seen as them showing their true hand. Or it is too subtle for me very subtle, perhaps trying to introduce the same shorthand and rhetoric that has worked in the US? Or maybe it is for US consumption, trying to increase the pressure on May in the trade deal versus foreign policy versus U.K. Interests trade off that is going to guide our dealings in the special relationship..... It is a tweet in that could have come from Trump....

Genuinely interested in what people including Maths think as to what an embassy would be aiming to achieve by such a, on the face of it, crass bit of propaganda

lalalonglegs · 10/01/2017 14:52

Where that analogy falls down, Choc, is that the Kremlin was important because it had power and could wield it (ultimately through its nuclear arsenal). The Labour Party has completely ceded power to the Tories first by being an ineffective opposition and now by all but rolling over and agreeing to a hard Brexit. I don't really care who has the power in the Labour party, I'd just like them to use it in some way to stop this government's madness (and, you know, maybe come up with a couple of interesting policy proposals - wage cap, my arse) Sad.

lalalonglegs · 10/01/2017 14:58

Assuming that the NI Assembly does have to have another election, what happens in the meantime if the SC judges rule that Stormont has to approve Brexit? As I understand it, it will be under direct rule from Westminster until the new assembly members are chosen (on the news last night, mid-March seemed to be the earliest that this was likely) so, in the hiatus, could TM approve Brexit on its behalf Shock?

whatwouldrondo · 10/01/2017 14:58

Incidentally in the same vein I was talking to a Russia specialist at a London university who was saying that the recent scandal in relation to Russian hacking is remarkable in terms of post war relations between Russia and the west. In the past a covert operation of this nature would aim to go undiscovered but if discovered would be disowned and, most importantly, shut down, there would be tit for tat expellings / sanctions etc and everyone would move on. Russia has barely bothered to deny it and few can doubt the operations are continuing pretty much in plain sight.

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 15:00

Minus 8 DUP to prop her up May could be on her way sooner rather than later. Makes her maj of 14, look fragile.
NI elections could also re frame Brexit debate round all sorts of issues, tories and DUP would prefer not to be spoken about in public. Grin

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 15:02

'could TM approve Brexit on its behalf'. Wonder who gets to tell Gerry Adams and Mc Guiness that, Bojo or lovely Liam Grin

woman12345 · 10/01/2017 15:15

You have to wonder, how and why it's come to this in NI.
Was this deliberate provocation by DUP( Irish language teaching fiasco, overt corruption in this ash/ cash thing) to lead to Mc Guiness resigning and direct rule (till after election), and vicarious approval of brexit over the heads of NI majority vote to remain???
What are they all playing at?
I am trying to learn as I go here, using BBC bitesize. Last time direct rule was imposed, 1972, things did not go well.
Either way if TM sees as this as her opportunity to drive around in a tank wearing a white hat like thatch liked to do, I do not think this will end well.
Is she setting it up to impose @50?

Are Sinn Fean seeing it as time to have a revote on brexit or Irish re unification, which would they prefer?
Will her working majority become untenable?
Time for NI peace women to get organising again too................

lalalonglegs · 10/01/2017 15:31

Direct rule has been applied to NI since the establishment of the Stormont government (euphemistically describled as a "suspension" of the NI assembly). It happened for several years in the early noughties and the NI Minister (Secretary?) takes over... in this case, Theresa Villiers Hmm.

I don't think Martin McGuinness was forced out by the DUP, he's been around too long to rise to that sort of bait. He is very ill at the moment and I'm sure it is a just a matter of time until he resigns - perhaps temporarily - because of his health so they could have just sat and waited a few months. I suspect that McGuinness wanted to Arlene Foster's scalp and perhaps wants to bring Brexit to the forefront of any re-election.