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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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woman12345 · 17/01/2017 08:46

Macron's man of the people schtick seems to be going down surprisingly well happy thought for the day Misti.

Question 7: How does Britain defend itself in war, when it's alienated all previous allies? Спасибо.

Peregrina Manifesto commitments not binding in law:
R (Wheeler) v Office of the Prime Minister 2008

Lico ! French $ Shock

woman12345 · 17/01/2017 08:49

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs I've lived through the terrorism of numerous wicked organisations, never been so terrified as by British government now.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 08:51

Sadly Martians - I can only agree with you. When is a Manifesto pledge not a manifesto pledge? They can't blame the other political parties for not supporting this one, which is the usual excuse.

I just wonder when senior Tories will realise that May is going to destroy the country and the party with it, and stab her in the back. They are particularly good at that - see how quickly Leasdom got thrown under the bus.

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 17/01/2017 08:58

I was watching a CNN interview with a Russian opposition leader whi said that the Kremlin uses interference techniques all over the place and wants to destabalise western governments. He feels he can then be free to 'take' the Ukraine and Baltic countries.

That is one of the most sensible thing I've heard for a long time.
Of course Russia has some major issue with the EU (just like the US btw) because it's stops them from expanding the country as he wishes. There is a major issue he with basic geography. Russia wants access to the Mediterranean Sea, because of all the links to it and the geopolitical effects. At the moment, it doesn't have that but this is the one thing Putin has been trying to get since he started.
Also worth remembering that Putin is an KGB. And what does the KBG do very well? Misinformation and spying me to mind very quickly.
In effect, he is doing what he has been trained to and is very good at.

And finally, but really most importantly, if a leopard shows you their spots. Believe them. Especially when it fits with a lot of other things around.

You can really wonder how the uk is going to be able to stand up to both the US and Russia all on its own.....

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 08:59

Manifesto commitments not binding in law:

Thanks, I suspected not, but even so - for a Party to promise a commitment and then blatantly ignore it can't do their credibility any good. They are in luck that at the moment, the biggest opposition party, i.e. Labour, is undergoing its own turmoil. Wasn't it Napoleon who talked about having Generals who were lucky? Still, luck can run out.

ElenaGreco123 · 17/01/2017 09:01

I read somewhere in the Guardian that they thought that May would advocate a clean break and then negotiate her way up to a closer relationship. Apparently she did this with a police treaty.

math Singling out foreigners occupying certain jobs sounds and awful lot like the numerus clausus laws of the Richmond and allies. Thank God for no violence though.

ElenaGreco123 · 17/01/2017 09:02

Peregrina Parties no longer have to worry. The people have spoken, so no need to vote again.

woman12345 · 17/01/2017 09:09

And the irony is Peregrina, as we all know, nothing about the ref result has any constitutional or legal status, nevertheless we are getting royally fucked over by it. Not to mention another thread which is detailing the actual racism being visited on British people born in other Euro countries, emanating from legislation passed in 2015 (!) on DC's watch. Daily, mainly mothers, are being ostracised, and worse for speaking in languages other than English. And the government is sending letters threatening deportation. It is giving a really brutal insight into what is actually happening. It is bloody scary. 'First they came for............'

Solzhenitsyn warned the British not to be complacent about their predisposition to totalitarianism.

woman12345 · 17/01/2017 09:11

And the government is sending letters threatening deportation.
sorry, over egging it, but sending very worrying letters on their rights to stay here.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 09:18

You can really wonder how the uk is going to be able to stand up to both the US and Russia all on its own.....

It won't, and especially given Trump's lukewarm attitude towards NATO, it will be first in the queue to join a European Army whether within the EU or outside it. I wonder how well that would go down with Leavers who didn't want an EU army?

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 09:21

I read somewhere in the Guardian that they thought that May would advocate a clean break and then negotiate her way up to a closer relationship. Apparently she did this with a police treaty.

That might be her plan, but I think she will find that she has given a push to a juggernaut, which is now running completely out of control.

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 17/01/2017 09:23

Solzhenitsyn warned the British not to be complacent about their predisposition to totalitarianism.
Scary but closer and closer to the truth that I ever thought.

As far as I am concerned, I'm judging the current government and where they are heading on what they are doing.
And yes atm, the whole thing is about sending people away, telling them they are 'not goog enough' and terrifying eu citizens who have made their life here (and therefore contributed to the British society).

I realised something yesterday. TM has being banging on about the fact she can't do anything about eu citizens until she has the clear assurance that British people in the EU will be protected too.
However, the EU has already said clearly that they are considering a European passport for any British people who would ask for it. Therefore allowing any British person in the EU to stay however long they wanted 'because they will be European'. If that wasn't a clear message from the EU as to how they are NOT intending to kick British people out, I wonder what that was. But it has been ignored and TM is still saying that 'she wanted it to be one of her first négociations but somehow the EU doesn't want to'. Whenkt wiuld have been very easy to say 'oh I can see you are intending to protect the rights of British people in the eu. We want to do the same and intend to protect eu citizen she in the uk' and to NOT send any threatening letters to people who have been rejected for the PR card.

So what I see is someone who is slowly putting her cards at the right place, sending little messages, checking that people arent screaming too much (e.g. By saying that it's normal to send away some married to a British partner and with British children). And to make them get use to the situation, little bit by little bit. Moving two steps forwards, one step backwards but still having things in place as she wanted (e.g. Listing the place of birth and nationality of pupils or asking tel companies to record all emails, internet searches etc...)
And then, tada, hard Brexit arrives but no one says anything about it because we will all have been groomed to accept it.

Bolshybookworm · 17/01/2017 09:24

Also, re-negotiating our entire relationship with the EU may be a tad more complicated than a police treaty......

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 09:30

If that wasn't a clear message from the EU as to how they are NOT intending to kick British people out, I wonder what that was.

Good point Martians. If you are on any of the facebook groups post this to one of them. There is a campaign to send emails to May saying that no, we haven't bought her Brexit stance. There will no doubt be further emails blasted off today when the £ tanks.

woman12345 · 17/01/2017 09:32

people arent screaming too much you're right, Martians . Except the scared children of people being threatened. Are we surprised that the need for mental health care for this young generation is going through the roof?
^Where is the C of E, CRE, Women's Institute ?
ECJ and ECHR, while we are still in the system?
It's facing more mothers than fathers I assume, with the income and health insurance rulings.
To use Ken Loach's phrase: 'conscious cruelty'. State run.

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 09:33

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nick-clegg-trump-gove-brexit_uk_587d26f4e4b0d38ccd5a7ca2?utm_hp_ref=uk
Exclusive: UK Will Be Trump And Putin’s ‘Hapless Pawn’ If We Copy ‘Sycophantic’ Gove, Says Nick Clegg
‘Gove and Trump, that is an absolute perfect combination.’

Law and policy @Lawandpolicy
1. Some thoughts about Theresa May's speech tomorrow.
2. First thought is that there is no (objective) reason for her to give this speech. Nobody would have expected had it not been announced.
3. Just as Cameron held a referendum he did not not need to hold, May is giving a speech she does not need to make.
4. This means she should get the credit if good things come from this unnecessary speech and the blame if bad things happen.
5. The timing of the speech is curious. There is no Supreme Court decision yet if parliamentary approval is needed.
6. As it stands, May has no control over A50 notification because of High Court decision. We don't know if Supreme Court will reverse this.
7. So May is making a speech tomorrow she doesn't need to make about a A50 decision which (currently) she cannot make.
8. May making an unnecessary speech tomorrow before knowing the SC decision looks like, well, a running commentary.
8. There is also the situation in Northern Ireland, the impact of which on Brexit is uncertain.
9. So what is the point of an unnecessary speech at a time of uncertainty when we don't know the outcome of the SC appeal?
10. It is trailed that May will announce that she will announce that UK will be leaving the Single Market.
11. But that has been plain for some time as the necessary implication of various statements she has said.
12. And an admission that UK will leave single market will make it easier for Remainers/Soft Brexiteers to oppose an A50 Bill in Lords.
13. But there must be some reason for this speech. It can't just be unnecessary, saying nothing new, and potentially counterproductive.
14. Can it?

/ends

James O'Brien ‏*@mrjamesob*
Horrible feeling that May's decided to ask for next to nothing from the EU solely to avoid a tabloid kicking if she sought more & failed.

Alexander Clarkson @APHClarkson
1. Many will not like what May will say but she will provide more clarity.
2. Many of her claims will not survive the negotiation process.

Piers Rake @PiersRake
Set on disasterous course by misjudgement of a Tory wanting to keep his job, driven off the cliff by a Tory wanting to keep hers.

Law and policy ‏**@Law**andpolicy
Excellent summary of politics of Brexit.

order-order.com/2017/01/16/may-speech-pre-briefed-quotes/
May Speech Pre-Briefed Quotes

“A little over six months ago the British people voted for change. They voted to shape a brighter future for our country. They voted to leave the European Union and embrace the world.And they did so with their eyes open: accepting that the road ahead will be uncertain at times, but believing that it leads towards a brighter future for their children – and their grandchildren too.

And it is the job of this Government to deliver it. That means more than negotiating our new relationship with the EU. It means taking the opportunity of this great moment of national change to step back and ask ourselves what kind of country we want to be.

NOTE WHO THE SPEECH IS PITCHED AT? Its does not read as if its aimed at anyone young.

I'm not quite as optimistic as some of the above either. May is obviously pitching to the Sun and to the Mail. No one else.

This is about the new GE. She is seeking to build support to dismantle our law system and replace it with an alternative. She is seeing to remove our Human Rights. All couched under Brexit. She is preparing the ground for if she is defeated in the High Court in a big way. She is speaking only to the older generations and not to the young to reassure them. THAT is deeply patronising and deeply undemocratic. She has stated objectives for all of this previously even before becoming PM. She will put in all manner of things in the manifesto, and because there is no opposition if she gets the majority the polls suggest, will be able to force it all through. I do not share optimism about Remainers or Soft Brexiteers being able to slow this or soften the blow.

Nick Reeves - 48% ‏*@nickreeves98*
A low tax, low welfare economy would never win a general election, but if it were believed that it was forced on us by the EU...

All this nonsense about JAMs. We are headed for work conditions at places like Sports Direct being the norm.

I personally feel like my future has really slipped away this week. DH is saying how he will never be able to retire because of all this. This is the grimmest its felt since 24th June. And I can only see it getting grimmer. And what for my son?

That paragraph that Guido Fawkes claims is in the speech - it just is salt being rubbed in. WHERE IS THE REASSURANCE TO PEOPLE LIKE ME? There is none. I do not exist. And those who voted for Brexit will either die or be enslaved.

Simon Tilford @SimonTilford
When #TheresaMay confirms the country's worst kept secret - that UK's headed for hard #Brexit - it'll have little to do with democracy. 1.
2. There's no majority for leaving the single market. Britons may resent free movement, but few are prepared to pay anything to end it.
3. May has done nothing to explain to voters the trade-offs they face between sovereignty over EU immigration & economic security.
4. Instead she's persisted with the dishonesty that trade-offs don't exist. Voters have little idea of costs they'll incur by leaving S.M.
5. Why has #TheresaMay failed to outline these trade-offs? After all, she backed #Remain, despite her ambivalence about free movement.
6. Because she's been running scared from Eurosceptics in her party & #UK'a right-wing europhobic newspapers ever since she came to power
7 Hard #Brexit won't happen because UK voters have given #TheresaMay no choice. But because the Tory Party & its press cheerleaders need it.

Alexander Clarkson ‏**@APHClarkson**
@SimonTilford an elite coup in many respects

Also Liz Kendall being rumoured as a potential Labour quitter.
NOTE This is an announcement in a speech. Its not a parliamentary debate.

OP posts:
woman12345 · 17/01/2017 09:33

£ tanking seems to be official opposition right now.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 09:35

I ought to add though Martians - that the EU will gain much more than we do - they will mostly get people of working age who can make a contribution to their society, whereas we will get a whole load of pensioners back. I saw stats the other day which said there were something like 400,000 UK pensioners in Spain, and 81(yes, less than 100) Spanish pensioners registered here. I was in Spain at the time, and can't find the link now.

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 09:41

Robert Peston - Facebook
So now that the finishing touches have been put to Theresa May's speech on her preferred architecture for the UK's Brexit relationship with Britain and the world, I have learned that she will signal:

  1. we will be out of the customs union, the group of countries that dispense with border inspections of imports and exports;
  2. she will "grudgingly" allow for a short period of "implementation" of any new trade deal (Downing Street's euphemism for the "transition" to full Brexit, desperately desired by many UK businesses, seen as toxic by Brexiteer ultras);
  3. May will make clear that the UK will default to slashing taxes and regulation if we don't agree an acceptable trade deal with the EU - in other words she will say "be nice or it's commercial war".
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RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 09:43

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-inauguration-poem-barack-obama-tyrant-scottish-heritage-a7530506.html
Donald Trump's inauguration poem describes Barack Obama as a 'tyrant'

'With purpose and strength he came down from his tower,To snatch from a tyrant his ill-gotten power.Now the cry has gone up with a cheer from the crowd:'Come out for the Domhnall, the best of MacLeod!'

OP posts:
woman12345 · 17/01/2017 09:59

When has nationalism ever brought peace and freedom?

InformalRoman · 17/01/2017 10:07

Domnhall is apparently derived from words meaning world and rule Hmm

That is a dreadful poem - William McGonagall will be turning in his grave.

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 17/01/2017 10:08

conscious cruelty'. State run.

But then it has already happened before with non eu immigrants. No one thought it was that cruel then.... :(

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 10:13

Dominic Casciani ‏*@BBCDomC*
BREAKING: Jack Straw to be sued over allegations of MI6's role in rendition to Libya in 2004 - Supreme Court ruling.

Hmm. Interesting.

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woman12345 · 17/01/2017 10:14

Get your point, TheMartians we are learning a lot about state racism.

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