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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
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lurkinghusband · 16/01/2017 17:12

I've just watched a Storyville programme from 2014-15 on magician James Randi called Exposed: Magician, Psychics and Frauds.

James Randi is a legend of the first order. It was he who devised the $1,000,000 challenge in the 60s (spoiler alert - many psychics tried to win it, none did).

One of his best stunts was to send a couple of professional magicians into "para"psychology labs in the US to display their paranormal powers. They were given strict instructions that if challenged, they should immediately admit to being frauds.

It's relevant to the current discussion that they never were.

(Derren Brown did a similar thing for Ch4 a few years back, where he faked spiritualist powers which were accepted without question by most of his assessors).

He write a book in the 80s called "Flim-Flam" which is well worth a read.

mathanxiety · 16/01/2017 17:44

In terms of echo chambers and Russia, my problem with this idea that they somehow just have a PR issue is the white supremacist and homophobic stuff coupled with an anti Muslim agenda. Why does that resonant? Just because of cultural history in different places it does not mean we should go 'oh ok then, that's fine.

Not everyone in the west or even the UK is non-homophobic, non-white supremacist, non-racist and happy to belong to a pluralistic or a secular society where Muslims live side by side with Hindus and Christians and Jews and atheists, etc.

There is no 'we', in terms of monolithic western opinion. There are laws and there are aspirations on the part of many towards what they see as a just and agreeable society, but opinion doesn't always agree with the law or the general drift of the law. There are many who have different aspirations from the liberal ones. The law can educate, it can form values, and it can be used to punish those who seek to live by different values or to thumb their noses at it. It can also alienate and cause the formation of groups seeking to change it. This works both ways (pressure groups seeking the establishment of Sharia courts, feminist movement, civil rights movement are cases in point).

Even when we look at the law, we see that the west is very much a johnny come lately to the liberal pov. It was only in my lifetime that homosexuality was legalised, and it was a few years after I got married when rape within marriage was identified as a crime.

We share the exact same cultural history with many of those places we now hold our noses at.

It is also worth pointing out that none of the human and civil rights that we now take for granted as women (I am assuming the majority here are women) were always available to us. Our forebears fought for centuries so that we could vote, own property, have rights over our children, have rights to our own bodies. None of the human and civil rights now recognised for gay and lesbian people were handed to them on a plate either.

There is a whiff of 'zeal of the convert' to our approach that we should examine. Just because we have changed our minds very recently on certain subjects doesn't mean everyone else is obliged to get in line asap.

This is not to say that there are no elements of life outside the west that are definitely worth fighting hard to amend - FGM, child 'marriage', lack of education for girls, second class citizenship for women (this goes for the maternity leave situation in the US too) - much else relating to the lives of women and girls - and development of good infrastructure like running water, electricity, healthcare in under developed parts of the world. There are some common concerns too - climate change is everyone's business.

SemiPermanent · 16/01/2017 18:19

YY math - great post,

lurkinghusband · 16/01/2017 21:40

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/brexiteers-turn-plebs/

The trouble with plebiscites is that they leave the plebs stranded. A complicated issue is reduced to one question: should we leave the EU, yes or no. Nowhere on the ballot does it ask whether we should leave the single market or currency union, crash into the WTO without trade agreements with the rest of the world, or tear up employment protections. There is just the deceptively simple question. It provides no guidance to which of the thousands of possible futures we could chose when it is answered.

The Leavers might have interpreted the referendum result as meaning Britain should embrace the Norway model; and pay the price for staying in the single market by accepting free movement. They might have interpreted the vote as meaning we should stay in the Customs Union, as we do not have the trade negotiators to cut new deals with half the planet. The world does not owe Britain a living, after all, and will want as large a slice of our industry as it can take. As Donald Trump’s advisor Wilbur Ross said, the UK’s withdrawal from the EU was a ‘God-given opportunity’ for London’s financial rivals.

Instead, the government has decided that vote leave meant vote hard Brexit. Philip Hammond is now saying Britain might become an Atlantic Singapore. He told Welt am Sonntag that if Britain was left closed off from European markets, it would consider abandoning the European-style social model, with ‘European-style taxation systems, European-style regulation systems’ and ‘become something different’.

‘We could be forced to change our economic model, and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness. And you can be sure we will do whatever we have to do.’
We were not told Brexit would mean tearing up worker, environmental and consumer protections. On the contrary, the vote was meant to be a chance for the ‘left behind’ to ‘take back control’ of their lives. Hammond is now saying, or at least threatening, that control will pass to employers who can break free of ‘European-style’ restrictions on how they treat their workforce and corporations, who can break free of safety and environmental standards, and see their tax bills slashed. In the name of taking back control, ordinary people will lose what protections they have, and see the corporate tax take for public services fall.

EU labour protections are significant. They guarantee paid holidays, and childcare. They forbid discrimination against employees on grounds of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation. When some of us tried to warn that Brexit would give the Tories the right to tear them up, we were denounced as liars misleading the public in the service of ‘project fear’. Andrea Leadsom and Gisela Stuart huffed indignantly in the Times in June that it was a ‘scare’ to suggest ‘there will be a bonfire of employment regulations after Brexit’ and the fat cats of industry will be ‘allowed to run free’.

Now it appears we may become a low regulation, low tax country where we bend the knee to every oligarch and asset stripper who wants to move here. The plebs may or may not get control of immigration from the plebiscite. But they will find control of their rights and lives slipping ever-further from them.

So here is the first problem with plebiscites. You only get the one vote, and there are no follow up questions. You might object that Leave won, and is entitled, like any other victor in British parliamentary politics, to govern and be judged by the electorate at the next election. But, and here is the second trouble with plebiscites, who is there to hold to account? The Tories in Vote Leave and Ukip supporters in Leave.EU made the promises about Brexit. When they won, they dissolved. Hammond and May, who voted to Remain, are leading the government. They are under no obligation to keep promises about Brexit made by others. Indeed, one assumes that, if they were sincere in June, they would keep us in the EU if it were up to them. Rather than being recognisable British politicians, they are almost civil servants carrying out a policy they regard as mistaken.

So here is the second problem with plebiscites: we have a government which is taking a dangerous position on trade that may threaten our jobs and living standards, and is threatening to take an ultra-conservative position on workers rights and corporate power, in the name of ‘the people,’ whose permission they did not seek, and because of a referendum, whose outcome they deplore.

lalalonglegs · 16/01/2017 22:39

"We were not told Brexit would mean tearing up worker, environmental and consumer protections."

To be fair, I think you were. Repeatedly. Still, Brexiters should worry if even the Spectator is getting anxious about the way this is heading.

Peregrina · 16/01/2017 22:42

"We were not told Brexit would mean tearing up worker, environmental and consumer protections."

You were, but it was dismissed as 'Project Fear', followed by six months worth of the more rabid Leavers crowing 'suck it up.' So, we will have to see how they like saying goodbye to all the above plus the NHS.

Kaija · 16/01/2017 22:51

Yes. It was all so fucking predictable, and widely predicted.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2017 23:16

We can't predict what will happen with Brexit, because no other country (except tiddlers like Greenland) has flounced out of a major trade bloc before to go off and "find itself"

May is leading the UK into the unknown. What fun.

If you are the first person to try a new way of doing something ...
To err is human, but to err in a way no one has erred before makes people question your judgment

SwedishEdith · 16/01/2017 23:18

John O'SheaVerified account
‏*@politicalhackuk*
Ted Malloch, rumoured Trump pick for ambassador to UK, suggests that TTIP would be good place for negotiations on a US/UK trade deal.

Well, well, well.

SwedishEdith · 16/01/2017 23:49

You kind of hope this has to be a parody account even for him but, no, I think it's real. From this evening.

Godfrey Bloom
‏*@goddersbloom*
The reality is Leavers create wealth, Remainers in the main consume it.
When push comes to shove Remainers are of no value to society.

BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 16/01/2017 23:50

So she's going to announce tomorrow plans to leave the Single Market?

I can't get my head round such utter stupidity. Fucking the country up the arse for what? To appease the Kipper demographic and their obsession with immigration?

Sheer.fucking.madness. She does not have a mandate for this.

Kaija · 17/01/2017 00:25

On America. But a lot in it that is sadly relevant to the UK right now.

blog.lareviewofbooks.org/essays/america-america/

Kaija · 17/01/2017 00:26

I'm with you bunty. It makes no sense. I'm starting to wonder what Putin's got on Theresa May...

ojalele · 17/01/2017 05:53

I lurk on this thread mostly but I was watching a CNN interview with a Russian opposition leader whi said that the Kremlin uses interference techniques all over the place and wants to destabalise western governments. He feels he can then be free to 'take' the Ukraine and Baltic countries.
My imlediate thought was: did he interfere with Brexit? Because whilst the UK and the EU are busy figuring out how to 'be strong together', Putin will be making deals with Trump.
Scary stuff. Confused

Mistigri · 17/01/2017 06:22

Something interesting happening in France. Maybe Macron is a blueprint for how centrists can combat populism - by becoming populists themselves. Macron's man of the people schtick seems to be going down surprisingly well considering that he was until recently economy minister in a historically unpopular administration. Can he really out-Farage Farage? Shock

Bolshybookworm · 17/01/2017 06:27

I can't get my head round it either. What happens to all the manufacturers whose primary market is Europe? What happens to research and what little is left of our scientific industries which are tied in with EU regulation and bodies? What about financial services?
There are hundreds of thousands of jobs resting on these answers. It seems utterly insane to announce that we're leaving the single market without any explanation as to how they're going to prevent whole industries from going under. Just mindblowingly stupid.

mathanxiety · 17/01/2017 07:20

Shock at Goddersbloom - that language is straight out of Eugenics 101.
......
The author of the LA Times blog lost me when she suggested Louis Farrakhan as an example of how stupid voting for 'change' is.

There was a credible alternative to Trump and Clinton. He got stabbed in the back by the Democratic National Committee.

(And the analysis of how Hitler came to power is ludicrous, omitting the element of brute force on the streets and extreme audacity in the political arena on the part of the Nazis, plus the fawning media that they controlled, plus the latent prejudices they summoned out of the darker reaches of the German people, and perhaps most importantly, the sponsorship of the captains of German industry, without which there would have been no uniforms or jackboots to swagger around in and no money to put out newspapers, etc., etc.)

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 07:48

How does May square taking the UK out of the Single Market, with the Tory manifesto of a committment to the Single Market? She most definitely won't be able to claim that she has a mandate for this. If the Tory MPs in the Commons would wake up, she could have a real rebellion on her hands. But they won't - appeasing UK is the order of the day.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/01/2017 07:58

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 08:04

I wonder if she will try 'the people have spoken' cr*p to justify this? After all, she has decided that the only issue people were worried about was Freedom of Movement - the 'promise' of more money for the NHS isn't something which concerns her, nor is Sovereigty - unless I suppose her idea of that is using Henry VIII clauses!

Kaija · 17/01/2017 08:09

"How does May square taking the UK out of the Single Market, with the Tory manifesto of a committment to the Single Market?"

Quite.

Kaija · 17/01/2017 08:12

In some ways it feels a lot like 2003. "The People Have Spoken" is the new WMD, and any amount of protest against the obviously insane course of action the government has decided on just feels like pushing on a string.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 08:23

If anyone on this thread is/was a Conservative voter, would they like to express an opinion as to whether they are happy with a PM who ignores Manifesto commitments? Will anyone be able to trust their Manifesto in future?

Lico · 17/01/2017 08:27

Very interesting article which is not relevant to this thread, apologies ( I started a new thread ..).
I always wondered why many French ordinary people if my Dad's age (86) were so anti American. I just laughed it off as them having a chip on their shoulders. He did show me some French Dollars (no kidding).

I finally decided to read about it and found it incredible. In fact the US wanted France to become a vassal state to the U.S, a protectorate. They had issued French Dollars.
The comment at the bottom of the article mentioned that , as always, the financial elites will have no loyalty except to their own interest. The U.S. might try it with the UK; we might soon have a British dollar -food for thought...

www.sott.net/article/298564-France-narrowly-avoided-becoming-a-US-protectorate-after-WW2

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 17/01/2017 08:35

Tbh, that's what happens when you do an unelected PM at the head of the country to lead what is probably the most crUcila times in history for Britain.

She doesn't represent the population wishes - she hasn't been elected.
The Conservatives don't represent the wishes of the population anymore - the vote in the referendum is going against what was in their manifesto and what people did vote for the last GE.

So yes it is really time for conservatives MP to wake up. And for all the others MPs too.
Why is it that they all seem to think they have no other choice than following the party leader when both of them are clearly so out of line (albeit for different reasons)?

I'm very scared of today's announcement. I feel it's going to seal the fate of this country and the one of my family. And not in a good way I so so hope that I am just being very pessimistic