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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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PattyPenguin · 16/01/2017 07:16

To look at a lighter side of the Gove-Trump love-in (and I'm desperate for a lighter side to anything at present), the Grauniad reckons it will have May spitting feathers, to paraphrase a bit, and that can't be a bad thing.

mathanxiety · 16/01/2017 07:52

Yes indeed Kaija. If there indeed has been involvement on social media.

I would say one reason is that that narrative has been carefully tailored to resonate with the concerns of its target audience. Another is that the trolling, by amplifying the chosen messages across social media, is creating its own resonance.
That is how all determined or professional use of social media works. It is actually how all discussion works even on a talk forum like MN.

All successful political parties also tailor their message to resonate as closely as possible with the concerns of the target audience. Ditto all advertising, all commercial TV in the US - markets are identified and ad space is sold. Apparently the Trump campaign made use of the sort of information RTB linked (showing correlation of certain regional TV show preferences). It allowed them to tailor messages for certain counties.

Party political signalling is an attempt to match the brand and the message to the zeitgeist - none of today's parties apart from the DUP are still saying the things they or their direct ancestors said in 1914. If signalling/use of code words fails it is because politicians and their advisors failed to really understand the times. Sometimes it succeeds beyond all expectations.

Sometimes parties steal or tweak each others' signals/codes - buzz words, hot button issues - following the adage 'if you can't beat them, join them' but try hard not to appear to be doing so (as in New Labour).

We don't exist in a vacuum and none of our ideas are original. None of our tastes are ours and ours alone. Every attitude we hold and every consumer preference can be traced to some point of origin.

mathanxiety · 16/01/2017 07:55
  • And political parties also create that thing we know as political reality. They create and drive the discourse. Occasionally the press will take us on a different course. Occasionally events will dictate the discourse. But a party can establish and then amplify its own agenda, and successful ones are the ones that do that consistently.
Eeeeeowwwfftz · 16/01/2017 07:57

I'm curious - does the Gove piece display the kind of intellectual rigour that he used to bang on about as EdSec?

The poll re Corbyn and the NHS is a bit depressing - the one thing that Corbyn is clear about is his commitment to the NHS, and given the evident crisis it's amazing that people could imagine he'd make a worse fist of it than May. But I'm guessing people will be thinking about the whole package. But then, I have my own entrenched view that May is the worst politician ever, combining malice with incompetent.

Kaija · 16/01/2017 08:01

Math, I don't disagree with any of that, but nor do I see how any of it makes Russia's actions less problematic.

Kaija · 16/01/2017 08:24

Urgh. Just listened to Michael Gove's interview on Trump after getting out of the shower. Now I feel like I need another one.

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 08:39

On Gove Follow the money: Murdoch- Pearson Press- The Times- new GCSEs - new teaching materials- Gove education (and privatised schools/ academy chains) ( see Michael Rosen's great blog site)www.michaelrosen.co.uk

I never voted for behaviourism. For as long as voters regard themselves as Pavlov's dogs this is what will be on offer. Dog whistle etc. One can choose one's own truth and it doesn't have to be either conspiracy or naivety. 9/11 and the concurrent explosion in social media has fed the distrust and paranoia, to the benefit of DT, NF etc.

Wise, mature and as non partisan as possible, trust could be the most valuable weapon against shark eyed cynicism. Look how the Freedom Riders did it, in cruel times too. They had to trust and work with a whole range of people.

Also agree on fictionalisation of reality. I have felt like I am reading a pretty poor thriller recently(following current events), and that merging of Louise Mensch's mad twitter feed with conspiracy thrillers on netflix seems to have got too confusing. The physical fact that it is all on the same device or phone, has exacerbated this.

And the segregation of high and low culture, with political ramifications. The up side of that one is that the 'class' of culture is international: Modern Family and Trevor Noah appeal to a international demographic, which is where most people under 25 live. Not sure how international Mrs Brown's Boys is, but, does anyone remember the great Roseanne, in the 1980s. Post Reagan cross culture blue collar comedy?

This could be one of many weak spots for DT. He is used to the protection of scripted TV. We are watching a poor(ill) actor improvising. His supporters may forgive many things, but a poor performance to a reality TV generation is unforgivable.

TuckersBadLuck · 16/01/2017 08:46

2 minutes of that Trump/Gove crap was enough for me. Apparently Britain voted for Brexit because we've been "forced to take in all the refugees. So many." - and that's OK and Gove was happy to sit there while Trump said it.

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 08:48

Petition Reform the system of obtaining Permanent Residence Certification/Card For British people who have magically been turned into foreigners.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/172343

Bolshybookworm · 16/01/2017 09:01

I couldn't even manage two minutes. Both of them raise my blood pressure to unacceptable levels (and they were playing Dylan on radio 2 Grin).

InformalRoman · 16/01/2017 09:06

I wonder if the Kai Diekmann write up was any better?

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 09:07

Bob for pres Smile

RedToothBrush · 16/01/2017 09:12

See I want to believe mensch is right and trump will be impeached. The trouble I have with it is that even if there is evidence there is still a lack of political will to do anything about it because of party self interest and personal self interest. Seeing as it mensch going on about it, you'd think she was a little more aware of thing.

In terms of echo chambers and Russia, my problem with this idea that they somehow just have a PR issue is the white supremacist and homophobic stuff coupled with an anti Muslim agenda. Why does that resonant? Just because of cultural history in different places it does not mean we should go 'oh ok then, that's fine. I'm just in an echo chamber what is elitest.' It doesn't mean we should, like Michael Gove did, turn a blind eye to when Donald Trump calls Syrian refugees 'illegals' or when he turned a blind eye to Nigel Farage is stood in front posters of refugees.

The danger we face is one of it turning into a civil war in the us as a result of this. That's why is near impossible to impeach trump.

He is removing the head of the person in charge of policing the inauguration half way through the day without a clear change in command and take over proceeded. It means if it kicks off somehow, who is in charge? Imagine if there was a terrorist attack. He could blame any trouble in the person who set it up and then go - of course that's why I removed him. He was no good at his job. I was right.

Then there is his personal security force. How do you arrest a man with that? He will claim it's a coup and not go peacefully. Difficult to see how it wouldn't be a shoot out and it wouldn't then lead to more violence elsewhere.

The stuff with journalism though is particularly concerning. Yes there is blatant propaganda going on from both sides now. That's the point! Maybe Russia is not involved at all. The parallels are there though. You either say that Russia is healthy in its society over the way it treats journalism or you don't. There is no echo chamber about that. Just a belief or lack of belief in democracy and certain moral preferences. Defending that by saying that it's just got a PR problem is worrying.

Just because something is flawed doesn't make the alternative better or make the argument that we should be listening to intolerant destructive views more.

Sadly this is what has happened and will happen because there is a fear in standing up in screaming that no that's just plain wrong and just as many people end up getting harmed anyway.

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RedToothBrush · 16/01/2017 10:09

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/15/michael-gove-donald-trump-interview-another-headache-theresa-may-revenge?CMP=twt_gu
Gove's Trump interview is another headache for Theresa May

No 10 did not appear to have been warned about Gove’s interview with Trump, carried out in the president-elect’s glitzy New York headquarters, alongside a journalist from German publication Bild.

One insider said it would be a “good read”; but the spectacle of her erstwhile leadership rival winning the ear of the most powerful man in America, while she has yet to secure a firm date for a face-to-face meeting, can’t have been welcome to May.

And the timing is less than ideal, too, as Downing Street tries to clear the political airwaves in advance of what is being billed as a decisive speech on Brexit on Tuesday.

One Gove ally suggested the prime minister was reaping the consequences of throwing so many of her colleagues onto the political scrapheap.

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ElenaGreco123 · 16/01/2017 10:13

KGB went too far this time. This I definitely do not believe.
BBC investigating whether Sherlock series finale leaked from offices of Russian state broadcaster
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/15/bbc-investigating-whether-sherlock-series-finale-leaked-offices/

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 10:15

It is really scary, you are right RTB, but if you look at the way Obama is playing it, that he can't say or do anything right now, but post friday he will be with us. He's done this for a living in Chicago, John Lewis has for 50, the civil rights movement, ecology movement, women's movement, gay rights for years, and through peaceful protest. They're not going anywhere. We feel alone right now, but that's deliberate, it's what all the paranoia and distrust does. But we're not, and there are people who have been fighting this nonsense for years and know how to do it. DT is not a million miles from what Nixon/Reagan administration stood on.(Law and order-state racism, fellow travellers with extreme right etc), in parallel to their tenure the above movements gathered steam. For example I was living in a flat in San Francisco during Reagan's time, lots of extreme right stuff. (air traffic controllers had huge strike) A woman in the flat worked for an abortion provider. She had regular death threats, in liberal SF in early '80s. But look at the strides that have been made in choice provision since then,(until friday!) .

The marches on saturday have met with some snotty complaints about gender politics that I don't understand, but I think quite a few people are going to be marching in 300 cities all over the world, including me.
Welsh assembly voted to overturn TU legislation:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/16/welsh-government-tables-bill-to-overturn-trade-union-act
No matter concerns about TUs, male domination, collusion etc. If it wasn't for them........................ Peacefully, again, the welfare state (remember that!) was created.

mensch = righteous in yiddish ! ( she gives me a sore head!)

And I could well be wrong, but I do think that we have to look to historical parallels to see what did and didn't work before.

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 10:16

ElenaGreco123 Grin

Peregrina · 16/01/2017 10:16

One Gove ally suggested the prime minister was reaping the consequences of throwing so many of her colleagues onto the political scrapheap.

May has been in politics long enough so should have been aware of the likely consequences - so I won't be shedding too many tears for her. Given that she has bought the hard-line Leavers ticket, I am surprised that she couldn't find room for Gove, on the basis of keeping your enemies close.

I thought he was doing a reasonable enough job at the MoJ - much better than in Education and better than his predecessor, so there seems to have been an element of spite involved.

woman12345 · 16/01/2017 10:17

historical parallels to see what did and didn't work before because wee Putin for sure does.

RedToothBrush · 16/01/2017 10:19

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/michael-gove-admits-didnt-ask-9630789#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Michael Gove admits he didn't ask Theresa May's permission to interview Donald Trump

And there you have it.

Trump will happily give interviews that undermine other international leaders who are his closest allies quite publically.

Gove happy to do more stabby stabby. How is this in the national interest Mr Gove?

How is this not a conflict of interest?

Will conservatives or labour pull him up on this?

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woman12345 · 16/01/2017 10:27

Gove happy to do more stubby stubby Disloyal, sinister and unconstitutional.
Is there a parliamentary ethics committee he could be brought before?
Basically needs an Andrew Neil session to flush it out.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 16/01/2017 10:37

I don't see it as a conflict of interest. Plenty of MPs freelance as journalists, broadcasters, don't they?

It is ridiculous though - and he is deliberately peddling untruths and sucking up to Trump is revolting, the twat.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/01/2017 10:50

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Peregrina · 16/01/2017 10:56

A comment from the Huffington Post's article: A grown up should probably point out to Michael Gove that Trump very pointedly did not say the UK would go to the front of the queue.

Indeed, and any trade deal will first of all be good for the US.

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