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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 13:50

imo, the Conservatives may take advantage of unique circumstances, to finally break away from the post-WW2 consensus on the welfare state & the nhs

MrsT took the first major steps, but the Tories until now could only take gradual steps along that path, or be savaged in elections.
The Tory right have always been frustrated about this, but have focused on winning GEs and then hoping for the opportunity.
(In contrast to the Labour hard left, who prioritise control of the party)

However now, by accident or planning, the Tory right now has the perfect opportunity to do this, with the lowest risk of electoral punishment they'll ever have:

1) There is no effective political opposition
Labour is in chaos, no visible end to their civil war, not regarded by the public as a possible alternative government.
But there is no clear successor to replace Labour. I've seen Liberal revivals before. They don't last, maybe because of fptp (I wonder if the SNP could have replaced SLab if there had been fptp for Holyrood ?)
So the opposition remains a large Labour rump, plus a mix of smaller parties.
Powerless under fptp.

2) The Ref vote for Brexit, with public opinion firmly against accepting Freedom of Movement
This gives the Tories public consent for hard Brexit (any talk of consequences is just trying to "rob Leavers of their victory")

To stop the exodus of business and tax revenue from the UK, i.e. to keep the country solvent, the Tories can justify slashing benefits to reduce outgoings and selling off what remains of public services, such as the nhs

Voters will be angry, but it will be all the fault of the EU ...

Lico · 15/01/2017 14:03

For info

European press : in English and other languages.

www.eurotopics.net/en/169318/does-the-eu-need-to-close-ranks-after-trump-s-win

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 14:16

Angry Brexit, Trump & far right European voters ?

"The angriest are not always the worst-off"

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/janan-ganesh-voters-who-shout-loudest-not-always-worst-off-1.2877099

"Theirs is the rage of dispossession rather than the rage of unique hardship"[[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-russia-cyber-idUSKCN0Y41FC
]]
"But if the worst-off are losing out to the not-quite-comfortable in the struggle for finite political attention and public money, that matters."

SwedishEdith · 15/01/2017 14:25

"What's happened to Hammond?"

Two thoughts - 1. He's, like most politicians, concerned mostly about his career. 2. He's drip-feeding the bad news to see how the markets react. I leaks are always to test the market.

What does TM's husband do? I know he's "something to do with hedge funds" but what? Is there not a risk of some conflict of interest here if his firm is benefitting from her statements? There is no way she won't discuss them with him, surely?

missmoon · 15/01/2017 14:29

"I'm saying that if UK goes into negotiations with a credible analysis of how we could if it came to it manage with hard Brexit"

It's a choice between a slow decline (with soft Brexit) or a fast decline (with hard Brexit).

A negotiating position that is based on arguing that we will be fine with a hard Brexit won't work because (a) a large proportion, a majority even, of the population is against it, including the vast majority of businesses, (b) the opposition of Scotland, as well as the situation in NI, threatening the Union, (c) there is no credible, costed, plan showing that a hard Brexit could be anything other than an economic disaster. Since hard Brexit is the default once A50 is triggered (unless there is a deal, agreed to by 27 member countries, each one with a veto), it is not a credible negotiating position at all. We are truly screwed once A50 is triggered.

InformalRoman · 15/01/2017 14:32

He's a relationship manager - according to Wiki his employers issued a statement when TM stood for PM that he doesn't make investment decisions.

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 15:00

Damn, had high hopes for Macron. We need to get some more wins: Austria, Richmond and Sunderland so far!

My interpretation of this is that the right, the far right and their Russian funders/ sympathisers (note the pseudonym adopted in the email above) have been spooked by polls which suggest that Macron beats the right wing candidate if he makes the second round.

Fillon appeals to many older French who want a socially conservative government but won't vote for a woman; this is aimed at that demographic. It works whether the second round pits Macron against Fillon OR Le Pen - if the latter, the aim being to make voting for a man rumoured to be gay even less appealing than voting for a woman.

Peregrina · 15/01/2017 16:12

Where's peregrina?
Ah, how nice to be missed. I have been on holiday, and unlikely although it seems these days, with only intermittent internet access. It's taken me until now to catch up with the threads. I have caught the main items of news - the Trump/Russia/ex-MI6 man story, the Martin McGuiness and Tristram Hunt's resignations, but not a great deal else. On the way home last night, the big item on the car radio news was about Arlene Foster's resignation, but there doesn't seem to be much about it in today's papers? Is this because it missed the newspaper deadlines, or because the rest of the UK doesn't care about what happens in N Ireland?

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 16:30

thanks for that Euro paper link Lico
Hi Peregrina! On the contrary, I've got high hopes that NI will be a substantial spanner in May's plans, it's in the Brexit committee doc that Red summarised a few pages back. If NI is between governments, how can it ratify any deal?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 16:43

I think we have to wait a week for Supreme Court verdict about NI:

"Theresa May’s plans to trigger Article 50 could be delayed by months because enacting Brexit while Northern Ireland’s Assembly is in crisis may be illegal"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-northern-ireland-crisis-stormont-assembly-delay-theresa-may-illegal-article-50-a7526126.html

"The Supreme Court is currently deciding whether the devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should also be entitled to approve Ms May’s plans to trigger Article 50.
...... The justices are currently considering the case and their verdict is expected within the next week."

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 16:51

Apparently the SC will give 3 working days notice before they deliver their verdict so that everyone has time to organise being there for it.

Nothing official yet, and I would be surprised if they make it clash with the US inauguration (or perhaps they would do it then PRECISELY for that reason).

Or maybe they will do it the week after...

ABC News ‏*@ABC*
Bush ethics attorney: Trump will be in violation of Constitution when he takes oath on Friday if foreign money not removed from organization

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woman12345 · 15/01/2017 16:51

Taking back control= England in control. That might annoy some people.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 16:55

Bloody hell, it's such a long complicated road even to trigger the A50 Shock
That was supposed to be "simples"

Then there's the non-trade negotiations for 2 years

May & co seem confident they'll be allowed trade negotiations in parallel to this, but I thought this was all supposed to follow after Brexit - did I miss the EU side specifically agreeing to parallel negotiations Hmm
(we're totally screwed if not)

And I gather the rest of the world won't even start trade negotiations with the UK until the UK-EU trade terms have been confirmed, i.e. what access to single market, any tariffs or quotas etc

Not that we have sufficient trade negotiators anyway, to agree more than who pays for lunch next week.

Oh bugger, this looks grim Shock
Cheer me up, someone
Hell, beam me up, Scotty

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 16:56

The ethics thing seems to be the line of self defence for America. It's difficult to know what to attack him on, there's so much!.
Have you all seen this, on another thread.
video.gq.com/watch/the-closer-with-keith-olbermann-still-supporting-donald-trump-this-message-is-for-you
The attacks on John Lewis seem to be to provoke civil strife, Obama has emphasised the need for peaceful transition so much.
I wonder if the Keith Obermann piece is also a plea for peace when the inevitable happens.
Pity May doesn't have such a high regard for peace and freedom of speech in NI and mainland.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 17:00

I understood the EU might facilitate an EEA / EFTA deal within the 2 years (if Norway and others could be persuaded to let us) but otherwise it's WTO and negotiate later - is that it ?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 17:02

I think May regards Scotland and NI (& Wales) as colonies of England.

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 17:02

BigChoc don't know if this is your cup of tea, but Philip Sands(human rights lawyer) talked so much sense about all of this stuff in this programme and chose some great music. It's not exactly a cheerer upper, but..............either that or Hendrix very loud is working for me atm!
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088j46j
Leonard Cohen song with Sands' favourite line: "There is a crack in everything - that's how the light gets in.".

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 17:09

Thanks for the link, woman Flowers but BBC video can't be downloaded outside the UK.
On the bright side, I'm in Germany, so I'm fine and I can send you all food parcels if the worst happens
Oh, hang on, they might have to go through UK customs ... and there might not be enough staff !

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 17:15

Can I have salami and black bread? Smile And another thing! Wee Tim Farron, the voice of Sunderland is the only one I know who's telling truth to power. I wonder what tablets Hammond ingested before that interview?
Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, told the BBC's Sunday Politics: "I certainly take the view they’re heading for a hard Brexit and essentially that means being outside the single market and the customs union is not something that was on the ballot paper last June.
"I think it’s right for us to stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the British people and that we should be fighting for the people to be the ones who have the say at the end of this process, not have it forced upon them by Theresa May and David Davis^."

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 17:44

Comrade Neil challenges fascist funding to gag press:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/watch-andrew-neil-grills-max-mosley-impress-funding/

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 18:28

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Discouraging news for new UKIP leader, Paul Nuttall, in latest Opinium poll. He gets the positive approval of just 15% of LEAVE voters

By the way. Watch Serbia and Bosnia for a developing story in 2017. The northern part of Bosnia is predominately ethnic Serbian and they are now pushing for Independence, whilst Serbia itself is trying to deliberately raise tensions with Kosovo whilst everyone in Europe and the US is pre-occupied with other things. It will not be being helped with a large number of migrants being trapped there and the suggestion that Belgrade might become the next Calais. (I would politely call Belgrade a 'mere shadow of its past and former glories' as it is). I think the significance for Europe of what is going on here is not being reported well.

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RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 18:46

Keir Starmer ‏*@Keir*_Starmer
For months PM won't disclose Brexit plan to Parliament. Now drip feeds it to media & makes speech not statement in HoC! Accountability gap.

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ElenaGreco123 · 15/01/2017 18:47

Red And the Russians are stirring it all up.
Montenegro's PM quits after suggesting Russia had role in election plot www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/montenegro-investigating-russia-alleged-election-coup-plot

There were lots if news items last year how Isis is trying infiltrate Bosnia, while Serbia was preparing to retaliate.
And now Serbia is awash with (literally) freezing refugees.

I am also a bit surprised about French politics. Just like Red I was under the impression that sex scandals were compulsory for any serious French politician.

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 18:50

^Kosovo stops Serbian train crossing border in move declared 'act of war'
Kosovo defends 'appropriate action' in response to 'act of provocation' but Serbia vows to defend 'every inch of its territory^
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kosovo-stops-serbia-train-crossing-border-belgrade-war-isa-mustafa-aleksandar-vucic-a7528361.html

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 19:15

... we should be particularly concerned about the rising tide of evidence that an authoritarian government has been funding and fomenting the rise of far right ideology in Europe...

If there was a rising tide of evidence then yes, we should.

But in actual fact, all we have is a rapidly speeding bandwagon.

...the likelihood of interference in European and U.S. politics by an authoritarian government... is not the same as the solid fact of interference.

If Russia is hell bent on destroying the EU, why leave the UK alone when the referendum practically handed the EU and the UK and the Euro to Putin on a plate? Is anyone seriously suggesting that Russia interfered with the UK vote? If not why wouldn't this have happened, or why couldn't this have happened? Is the UK and all UK institutions so much more cyber secure than the US? Does Russia have no dirt whatsoever on any UK politician or major political donor? Nothing to use as leverage?

Or is Cameron in cahoots with Putin now?

It is easy to claim interference in elections that are 'over there' on less familiar political and demographic and cultural territory than the home turf. Painting with broad strokes is hardly ever a good idea.

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