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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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woman12345 · 15/01/2017 09:32

Sorry to disrupt thread, but back to BigChoc
A "One Party State" is when no other party is allowed to stand.
If you remember the vitriol during the independence campaign, know the reluctance of 'no' voters to put up or keep up their posters, lack of 'no' stuff on their FB feeds, know anything of the (quite understandable) Scottish perception of English colonialism, it is very difficult to be a 'good' Scot and be pro union, very difficult. It is not what is taught and experienced (poll tax etc). And even more amazing that the vote went the way it did Hmm

While the independence campaign was peaceful, more or less, we know that the referendum one was not. And now I know I would like to fly and EU flag and wear the Tshirts, even in a remain little town, and am nervous to.
When the populace is not comfortable to take part in ordinary political activities, the slippage in the opposition is inevitable in all the countries in Britain, and although there are elections, the ruling party will maintain increasing power.

Look at what happens on here, when customers come to offer their views on us and Trump, and that's just a little mn forum.

Debate is being shut down, the opposition ( in some ways due to their own ineptitude) is crumbling, ordinary people are very nervous to voice opinions, take part in actions and the inevitable result is the ruling parties are not called to account. It's not a one party state in Scotland or England, Wales and NI, but sure feels like it. It comes down, I am sorry to say, to fear. And that's what May is giving in to.

Lico · 15/01/2017 09:34

Maths: very good post. I agree with you

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 09:43

The west made it possible to be a political dissedent. If America falls and the UK follows close behind, even that's not possible agree, Red.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 09:45

But I don't think anyone has suggested that the US hacking Merkel's phone was in the pursuit of an overt US political agenda vis à vis German domestic politics (ie with the overt aim of influencing the election of Merkel or her successor). It was aimed at gaining national advantage and it was an outrageous invasion of privacy (as well as being a massive foreign policy fail). But it wasn't a direct attempt to subvert the democratic process in Germany.

I disagree. It started when she was in opposition and could only have had one end - possibly ascertaining her inclinations and policies, most likely gathering compromising material on her, seeking to gain a toehold and future influence.

It really is not unthinkable that the US could countenance influencing elections in another country. The US has a lot of form for direct intervention in regime changes after all. Part of the reason for the unfolding Syrian tragedy is the US's insistence that it could easily and cheaply effect regime change in Syria by supporting opposition to Assad, without giving sufficient thought to the danger of creating conditions ripe for the takeover of the country by ISIS when it was weakened enough to allow that.

missmoon · 15/01/2017 09:45

BigChoc thanks for the link, May's speech will of course have the opposite effect, it will create more divisions. The only way to have a successful Brexit, with everyone pulling together, is to reach consensus on the goals. It's very worrying....

Lico · 15/01/2017 09:46

Maths: i meant the 08.52 message!

I found this article yesterday from Le Figaro (French right wing paper-figures based on 2014).
It would be great if someone could interpret the figures as I am not good at this.

www.lefigaro.fr/economie/le-scan-eco/dessous-chiffres/2016/06/25/29006-20160625ARTFIG00007-brexit-l-europe-ne-coutait-pourtant-pas-si-cher-au-royaume-uni.php

A French government report suggests that it might suit France that Britain leaves because they had to contribute considerably to the rebate that the UK was getting!

www.senat.fr/rap/r10-603/r10-603-syn.pdf

missmoon · 15/01/2017 09:49

"It really is not unthinkable that the US could countenance influencing elections in another country. The US has a lot of form for direct intervention in regime changes after all. "

The fact that the US does it too doesn't make it ok.

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 09:50

math

Liberals and democrats (I use those words in the wider sense) should be concerned generally about foreign interference in the political affairs of other countries. We should be (and are) concerned about western interference in the near East. We don't give our own governments a free ride.

But we should be particularly concerned about the rising tide of evidence that an authoritarian government has been funding and formenting the rise of far right ideology in Europe, partly because we live here and partly because as liberals and democrats we are presumably attached to liberal and democratic principles.

There's self-interest at work here, sure. But in the same way, there's a whole lot of self-interest at work when people who sympathise with right (and left) wing authoritarianism turn a blind eye to the likelihood of interference in European and U.S. politics by an authoritarian government.

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 09:50

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/15/philip-hammond-suggests-uk-outside-single-market-could-become-tax-haven

In an interview with the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag, Hammond commented that if Britain was left closed off from European markets after leaving the EU, it would consider leaving behind a European-style social model, with “European-style taxation systems, European-style regulation systems” and “become something different”.

Bye bye social security and NHS. Hammond just admitted it.

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woman12345 · 15/01/2017 09:56

Both the alt right in US and May here are actually weaponising health care.

HesterThrale · 15/01/2017 10:02

Here's the Welt interview. Why do the Germans get this information before the UK?

www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

He says we have a strong security and intelligence relationship with the US; more of an economic one with the EU. But apparently we find 'the defence component of the EU... anathema'. Strange difference.

He talks of triggering A50 'in the spring'. Bit more vague than 'by the end of March'.

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 10:07

We have been a nation that has been focused beyond that, to the wider world and pillaging it.

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 10:07

Mirror politics @mirrorpolitics
^#Marr: "If you don't win by-elections in Copeland and Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast aren't you?"
Corbyn: "No."^

You know the football manager who needs a couple of good results before the board pull the plug...

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woman12345 · 15/01/2017 10:08

If I present this emotionally rather than politically, the leaders need to respect the British people’s sense that our history and our destiny is an engagement with the wider world and not just with the European continent; that historically we have never been a nation that was focused on continental Europe. We have been a nation that has been focused beyond that, to the wider world. Previous paragraph makes more sense.

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 10:10

Good luck folks. American style healthcare, coming soon, but only to the wealthy. Glad I have my escape route.

HesterThrale · 15/01/2017 10:13

Hammond's completely bought the Brexit line. And it sounds like blackmail when he says 'if we are denied access to the European market.... we'd have to change our model to regain competitiveness'.

Corporate tax haven maybe?

I really don't like the sound of this. 'Change our model to regain competitiveness' could be: chucking out all worker protections...gig economy...exploitation; to become profitable. Reject the European social model? That's what it reads to me.

What's happened to Hammond?

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 10:15

You know the football manager who needs a couple of good results before the board pull the plug...

The problem for Labour is that there is no "board". I'm all in favour of worker participation, but Labour's current predicament is a bloody good argument in favour of leaving some decisions to management!

End times for the Labour party and under the current constitution there is no way back. I'm loathe to predict the rise of the LibDems as the main opposition, because history tells me that anyone forecasting such a thing is deluded, but something has to change, surely? It's beyond belief that the Tories under May get better ratings on the NHS than Labour under Corbyn. If Labour can't win on the NHS then they are dead in the water.

CeciledeVolanges · 15/01/2017 10:16

Lico the article says that the total EU budget represented only 1% of the combined GDP of all the EU countries, while the U.K.'s contribution was 0.23% of its GDP. Most of the budget was spent on growth and employment support, with another large chunk on supporting agriculture. 6% of that budget went to running costs of the Union. The green section of the pie chart (a big chunk) is for renewables and sustainability. 81% of the budget came from the contributions of the member states and the rest from VAT and external tariffs/customs fees (what a delicious irony :( )
There is then a bit about the EU reimbursing fees so that some countries get back more than they paid. The conclusion of that bit is that the NET contribution is much smaller for the UK than for Germany and France. "The weight of European Solidarity" is what the article calls it, excellently.

In proportion to the size of the country, the UK's net contribution is the tenth largest. Sweden, Germany and Finland are among those who contribute more in proportion to their power.

The French pay the most towards the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1979 when she threatened to leave the EU if she didn't get her money back. François Hollande has in vain asked for a cap on France's monetary contributions towards its neighbors' rebates.

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 10:16

Hester that interview is un believable. Shock

StripeyMonkey1 · 15/01/2017 10:17

Red - that's an interesting interview.

Of course, the only real economic alternative for the UK to a continued close relationship with the EU single market is the low tax, low social benefits, tax haven style option. It is therefore the only real credible threat we have to make against other European countries, who would not want the UK to be such a neoliberal tax haven right on their doorstep.

I suspect that it is really just that for now, a threat, in order for us to gain leverage. I don't read May as wanting a hard neoliberal free trade state, as this would run contrary to what she has been saying about increased state intervention to help those who are struggling. Having said that, if our bluff is called this could be where we end up.

I had thought that May was simple being secretive in using her poker analogy, but what if it has an element of truth to it? The game then is, "give us free market access or we become an offshore low tax haven".

There is a possible "win" for May and her vision for the UK here. The potential loss, of the NHS and many of our other social protections however, if we "lose" is a big potential downside. I wonder how may Leave voters would have voted the way they did, had they known that this would be the gamble?

CeciledeVolanges · 15/01/2017 10:18

And therefore if the UK leaves, the members of the EU will have to make up the contribution of the UK. But because France was contributing most to the English rebate (other countries have rebates but because the UK got one first, France pays more) France might not have to contribute as much more as other countries do and its contribution might go down.

Hope that helps.

woman12345 · 15/01/2017 10:20

CeciledeVolanges thanks for the stats. This should be front page news.

HesterThrale · 15/01/2017 10:35

Woman, yes unbelievable interview.
www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

I think we're finally beginning to get a picture of the direction of travel.... May's speech this week apparently outlining a hard Brexit, and Hammond's interview with Welt.
And all this stuff about May wanting to support the JAMs is bollocks. People believing that might be the only reason that the Tories still seem to be ahead in the polls, and still trusted more on the NHS.

Misti, you're right, Labour are dead in the water.

PattyPenguin · 15/01/2017 10:40

I don't reckon any plan for the UK to become a tax haven will go all that smoothly. I don't think anyone has posted this yet
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/netherlands-will-block-eu-deal-with-uk-without-tax-avoidance-measures

"The Netherlands will block any EU trade deal with the UK unless it signs up to tough tax avoidance regulations preventing it from becoming an attractive offshore haven for multinationals and the rich, the deputy prime minister of the country has said."

Lico · 15/01/2017 10:55

Thanks Cecile-