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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 22:23

BigChoc is ACA different from Obamacare?

Its the same thing. There was a funny facebook conversation doing the rounds the other day from this guy going on about how good it was that Obama care was being ended. When challenged he said how he had no problem with poor people and health insurance - he understood as he had ACA cover.

He got RINSED.

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prettybird · 14/01/2017 22:26

ACA is Obamacare - it's just what the Republicans pejoratively called it.

However, there are some people who voted Trump and against Clinton because they wanted Obamacare rescinded but were happy they were covered by the ACA Confused There's a funny sad Twitter thread where the guy defending why he voted Trump because of Obamacare was enlightened that he's just voted against the very thing he was "defending" (ACA) Hmm

woman12345 · 14/01/2017 22:29

thanks all! Wonder what maycare will be like Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 22:33

UKIP were ordered to repay €172,000 to the EU by 21 December

This is EU money that the aduitors said was spent against the rules - on campaigning in the GE and the referendum.

What happened about this ?
Have they paid / appealed / ignored ?

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 22:34

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/14/russia-blackmail-chris-bryant-donald-trump-boris-johnson-liam-fox?CMP=twt_gu
Senior British politicians ‘targeted by Kremlin’ for smear campaigns
Former minister Chris Bryant claims Russian agents compile ‘blackmail’ dossiers on all high-profile ministers

Chris Bryant is very firmly a member of 'the swamp' interesting its him who has done this piece...

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woman12345 · 14/01/2017 22:35

Stoke UKIP candidate Tariq Mahmood is a former Labour member. “I was a member in 2010, when Tristram was parachuted in. There was a general concern and resentment both within the city and the local Labour party – people felt that it was wrong for the party to parachute somebody in from London who could then dictate to us how to run the city.
This is a travesty, it's been happening in labour wards all over the country. Great local members, in my ward, more ethnically representative than candidates, and candidates are imposed. Looks like this has happened with Tariq Mahmood, a barrister, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a great candidate. Poor show, Labour, and disloyal, Tristram.

woman12345 · 14/01/2017 22:38

‘targeted by Kremlin’ was that why Bojo withdrew so promptly from his leadership challenge? (some one on this thread mentioned something they heard ) and Fox has his peccadilloes.

TuckersBadLuck · 14/01/2017 22:41

UK corporation tax is currently only 17%, compared to 34% and 30% for France and Germany respectively.

UK corporation tax is 20%, not 17%.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 22:44

A "One Party State"
is when no other party is allowed to stand.

Whatever you think of the SNP, Scotland is NOT a one-party state.
Several other parties stand
The voters choose to give the SNP far more votes than any other party.
The other parties have little appeal to the voters.
That's inadequacy of the other parties, not a one-party state

The overwhelming number of SNP Westminster MPs is due to the FPTP system, which Conservatives & Labour support.
The UK public also chose in a referendum to keep FPTP in preference to AV.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 22:52

Tucker Yes, I should have posted the Chancellor "currently plans " 17% by 2020
The Brexit negotiations would presumably use that 17% figure, since the earliest Brexit is 2019
Yes, you are a pedant Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 23:05

Back in the USSR ... the KGB recruited quite a few politicians as "agents of influence".
Those we know about:

Tom Driberg MP, former Labour Party chairman
Raymond Fletcher MP, a Labour junior minister

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/446305.stm

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 05:10

"17.It is essential that closer UK–Irish relations and stability in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement are not jeopardised by the UK’s exit from the EU. The Executive and the Assembly in Northern Ireland should be duly involved at every stage in the process. In the light of current developments in Northern Ireland, a way will have to be found to make this happen. (Paragraph 92)"

In the light of current developments in Northern Ireland, a way will have to be found to make this happen.
DELAY A50. YOU KNOW WE HAVE TO FOR NUMEROUS REASONS.

^^This.
They are trying to square a circle here.

I am gobsmacked at that report. Your commentary is spot on, RTB.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 06:27

If there were the slightest allegations after the next GE that May was in cahoots with a foreign government, including hacking the Labour Party, they would be screaming for an enquiry and for May to be replaced.

What does 'in cahoots' mean?

Is the British government as a member of the EU in cahoots with Russia thanks to important trade links between the EU and Russia?
In cahoots with Russia by means of membership of the WTO? G20?
In cahoots with the US while in NATO?
In cahoots with South Africa if the UK trades with SA?
In cahoots with Saudi Arabia if we send Prince Charles there on an official visit or sell arms there?

Trade and counter terrorism communication with all sorts of foreign countries is a fact of life. Like it or not, Russia exports natural gas and oil and customers include many European countries. In turn many European countries export to Russia. The UK has no problem trading with Saudi Arabia and it took a momentous campaign to get the UK to stop trading with South Africa in order to apply pressure to end Apartheid. Russia and the EU and the US alike are threatened by Islamic fundamentalist terror, and co-operation is necessary. www.nbcnews.com/storyline/boston-bombing-anniversary/russia-warned-u-s-about-tsarnaev-spelling-issue-let-him-n60836 What the US does with warnings from Russia is up to the US, but are security services 'in cahoots' when they communicate?

www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2014/03/26/congressional-report-details-intelligence-failures-prior-marathon-bombings/P1EJ4eGWdvt1K809brQ5VO/story.html
Incidentally, neither the CIA nor the FBI are infallible. This article deals with the House Committee Report on the Boston bombing fiasco. Those who place their faith in the CIA and FBI to unearth interference by Russia in the election should probably remember this episode.

Surely the whole point of opposition to Brexit is that those who see the need to Remain are able to appreciate the very complex nature of international relations? Remainers reject the black and white, in-out, all or nothing paradigm and they reject the simple answer to the complex question. Yet there is this massive blind spot when it comes to Russia. Only the simplest of answers has any appeal where Russia is concerned.

I am suggesting here that phrases like 'in cahoots' have no place in any serious discussion on international relations.

I would hope that it would take more than 'the slightest allegations' to end the career of a politician or anyone else for that matter. Both the US and the USSR have tried that, and the periods when witch hunts were the order of the day were not those states' finest hours. Not that I am much of a fan of Theresa May - but I would hope that the UK isn't yet the sort of banana republic where accusations based on flimsy evidence and leaps of faith/flights of fancy would be enough to warrant a full scale inquiry or speedy dispatch to ignominy.

What I am most thankful to Bernie Sanders for is uttering the word 'socialist' out loud and without apology while running for office in a country where the word is one that makes little old ladies grow pale and makes gentlemen reach for their AK47s*. This sort of problematic black and white thinking is what keeps America from having a healthcare system. It is what inspired the dismantling of the ACA that is now under way - God forbid that American people should have affordable healthcare, or paid maternity leave, or a welfare system or any other abominations of socialism.

(* Despite its Soviet background, the AK47 is a very popular weapon in the US and the NRA fully supports the right of Americans to own and to use it. There is a lively black market in weapons of all sorts, including assault weapons.

The following American companies produce military variants of the AK47:
Century Arms: C39 (AK47 var.), RAS47 (AKM var.), and C39v2 (AK47 var.),
InterOrdnance: AKM247 (AKM var.) M214 (pistol),
Palmetto State Armory: PSAK-47 (AKM var.),
Arsenal Inc: SA M-7 (AK47 var.),
Destructive Devices Industries: DDI 47S (AKM var.) DDI 47M (AK47 var),
Rifle Dynamics: RD700 and other custom build AK / AKM guns.

Kalashnikov Concern licences producers outside of Russia but there are many unauthorised producers, both large and small scale. The Kalashnikov brand has been used to sell vodka, clothing, motorboats, drones.
The AK47 and the company that makes it serve as a reminder that life is more complicated than it might seem on the surface, or more complicated than we might like it to be.)

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 06:51

I am gobsmacked at that report. Your commentary is spot on, RTB.

Why gobsmacked? It was the report of a committee on which remain and leave MPs from all the major parties sit together, and which took reams of evidence - which you can read, if you go to the html version of the report and click on the references in the footer on each page.

It's not surprising that a commitee that took evidence has come to the conclusions it has come to - because those conclusions are, for the most part, the inevitable consequence of listening to people who know what they are talking about.

That doesn't mean that any of this will become government policy; the papers are reporting today that May has confirmed she is seeking a "clean" (hard) brexit. Watch the pound tumble on Monday ...

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 07:06

What does 'in cahoots' mean?

I'm afraid I think you are being very disingenous here mathanxiety.

I'm no russiaphobe: I work for a company which has had trade links with Russia since before the end of the USSR. My first job when I joined the company was as an analyst covering the FSU (former Soviet Union). I've worked closely on our Russian business with my Moscow colleagues for the best part of two decades. I can read some Russian.

Doing business with Russia is not "being in cahoots with it"; my first boss visited Russia many times even in the USSR days, had many Russian contacts and friends, and received industry awards from Russian institutes - yet he was a principled man (and a dedicated liberal in the old sense of the word). So we shouldn't automatically assume that people like Tillerson are bad people because they have done business with Russia (there are plenty of other reasons to think Tillerson is an evil man but having business links with Russia isn't, necessarily, one of them. It depends how he has conducted himself when doing deals in Russia).

However, doing business with Russia - either as a private company or as a business - is very different to cooperating clandestinely with Russia in the pursuit of domestic political objectives. It was pretty well established, long before this whole Trump thing, that Russia has been funding and inciting the far right in Europe; are you OK with that? Because I'm not ...

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 07:09

Sorry, proof reading fail there. Final para should start:

"Doing business with Russia - either as a private company or as a government"

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 08:17

Those are completely specious comparisons, Math
"in cahoots" means very much an illicit, improper relationship - in this case allegedly based on financial ties with Trump the person, not negotiated agreements and official alliances between countries, approved by Congress / Parliament.

If May were alleged to be making her decisions as PM because of (imaginary example !) - her financial interests in Syrian business deals, loans enabled by the Syrian government, her friendship with Assad - there would be an immediate demand for an enquiry.

She would (hopefully) be ousted if it was thought likely that those Syrian interests would cause her to give special treatment as PM to Syria wrt sanctions, no fly zones, intelligence etc
She would be judged childishly vindictive - and vulnerable to blackmail - if it were thought she had been filmed in Damascus with a toy boy pissing on a bed because Tony & Cherie Blair had slept on it.

I would call it being "in cahoots" with Syria if:

  • she had large financial deals with Syria and was a friend & admirer of Assad

  • openly applauded Syria for hacking the Labour Party (or Libs, Green, UKIP) in the next GE

  • tried to stop official investigation, when the UK intelligence services - and Labour themselves - said they believed this hacking occurred

I would not trust her if she also talked about dropping sanctions and working with Assad, even if that might be a reasonable case from say Corbyn or Farron.
Because she could not be trusted in dealings with Syria. Hence unfit to be UK PM.

And yes, the late Tom Driberg, former Labour Party chairman and KGB agent was "in cahoots" with the USSR.

Putin is a dangerous fascist
Even if you ignore his war crimes against Muslim civilians ...

Putin as Russian leader openly supports fascist and far right parties across Europe
Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Farage, the AfD, Austrian Freedom party ...
Do you also support them ? And Trump ?
If not, why would you defend Putin and his support of them ?

It's concrete support of the far right - Germany and France are very worried he / Russia will interfere in their coming elections.
Russia already hacked the German Parliament in 2015

Russbots already spread fake news across German social media, demonising Muslims,
e.g. that a 13-yr-old German-Russian girl was kidnapped and gang-raped for 30 hours. That had tremendous impact, but the debunk reached far fewer people, or wasn't believed.

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2017 08:43

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-dossier-file-investigation-hacking-christopher-steele-mi6-a7526901.html

Last para.

Mr Steele is now in hiding, under attack from some Tory MPs for supposedly trying to ruin the chances of Theresa May’s Government building a fruitful relationship with the Trump administration. Some of them accuse him of being part of an anti-Brexit conspiracy. A right-wing tabloid has “outed” him as being a “confirmed socialist” while at university.

Being anti brexit / socialist = being a traitor.

Bad times ahead.

The NHS is dead with hard Brexit. Trouble in NI is brewing.

Is Brexit worth dying for? People didn't want to pay for it financially...

The west made it possible to be a political dissedent. If America falls and the UK follows close behind, even that's not possible.

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mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 08:52

Just because the rise of the right in Europe is bad news doesn't mean it's good for Russia.

Just because the right is on the rise in Europe and because it threatens Europe doesn't mean it is funded by Russia or encouraged by Russia or in any other way helped by Russia.

The only substantiated allegation wrt Russian links to any right wing party is the loan to France's National Front. (Apparently this bank is ok with EU financial regulators.) Previously, the party received loans from the Société Générale, which has stopped loaning to political parties since the 2012 French election thanks to corruption, and overspending by Sarkozy. Is this bank somehow linked to Russia? Or is it ok for a French bank to undermine democracy and decency in France and Europe?

I think it is a huge mistake to try to ascribe the fallout of the Reagan-Thatcher years to some Kremlin puppet master. It is as bad in its own way as accusing people who are right about Aaron Banks of holding opinions on immigration - oversimple and false equivalences are a real problem.
See for example this quote from upthread originally supplied by RTB:
"Simon Cox Retweeted Kevin Parlon
Yesterday I pointed out @Arron_banks is a racist demagogue. Some people take that to mean I like the fact of mass migration..."

Critical thought is needed here. Allegations and assumptions and insinuations about Kremlin intentions and actions are not facts and no amount of broadcasting them and hoping they are true will make them so.

It wasn't Russia who influenced the people who like Modern Family vs Duck Dynasty to do so. It wasn't Russia who ran the NHS into the ground and now threatens to sell it off to private business interests, or created the north/south divide that dominates English politics. It wasn't Russia who oversaw the rise of the SNP or Sinn Fein or the SDLP or Plaid Cymru, none of whom have complete acceptance of the concept of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It wasn't Russia that encouraged the continued popularity of the DUP in Northern Ireland, whose obtuseness continues to threaten peace and prosperity in both NI and the Republic. Russia really is not responsible for the fact that apparently there are so many stupid people around.

www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-09/putin-s-european-allies-don-t-need-his-money

www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-13/cyberwar-has-gone-public-and-that-s-dangerous

It is much harder to ask inconvenient questions about mainstream media following government and establishment narratives too closely (Iraq war anyone?) than it is to point fingers at the Kremlin. It is also much easier to opt for the simple answer when the political upset has occurred in a political theatre that is not familiar territory. Mainstream media is digging itself into a deeper and deeper hole when it engages in the circus now in full tilt about cyberwarfare. It is further alienating those who decided to vote for Trump when what is needed is the establishment of rapport, and the sort of education on important issues such as the revelation that the ACA and 'Obamacare' are the same thing. The circus is also providing a smokescreen for the diehard right wing of the GOP as it barrels legislation through Congress on healthcare coverage. The Democrats need to wake up and blow the smoke away and focus on what is really important now. They have been sucked into this with both eyes open while almost everything they hold dear and everything that is important to American people is being demolished.

Brexit has been analysed exhaustively and despite the fact that the voters must surely have looked like low hanging fruit for the Kremlin, and with the huge advantage of throwing a massive spanner in the EU's plans for growth and development, depriving it of UK funding, losing the UK export market, endangering Ireland's economic recovery and thus the Euro, encouraging the Right and Euro sceptic parties, nobody has seriously suggested that the Kremlin had anything to do with the result. Aaron Banks, Farage, people's stupidity, media misinterpretation of the duty of fair coverage, traditional north-south divide, poverty, poor education, age of voters, national-imperial myth, outright racism - all of this and more have been discussed and rightly so as causes for the way the vote went.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 09:05

Russia already hacked the German Parliament in 2015

The US hacked Merkel's personal phone for many years.

From the Telegraph:
'John Kerry, the US secretary of state, received a dose of European fury this weekend when he visited Paris and Rome. The trip was arranged to discuss the Middle East peace process, the Syrian civil war and Iran’s nuclear programme. Instead, he was confronted by outrage over the scale of US surveillance operations.

“The magnitude of the eavesdropping is what shocked us,” said Bernard Kouchner, a former French foreign minister, in a radio interview. “Let’s be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else. But we don’t have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous.”

According to the leaked documents in Spiegel, NSA officials acknowledged that any disclosure of the existence of the foreign listening posts would lead to “grave damage” for US relations with other governments.

Such posts exist in 19 European cities, including Paris, Madrid, Rome and Frankfurt, according to the magazine, which has based its reports on documents provided by Edward Snowden, the former NSA contractor.

Mr Obama did not comment, but Republican supporters of the US intelligence community began a fightback on the political talk-shows.

Mike Rogers, the chairman of the intelligence committee in the House of Representatives, said that America’s allies should be grateful for surveillance operations which targeted terrorist threats. “I would argue by the way, if the French citizens knew exactly what that was about, they would be applauding and popping champagne corks,” he told CNN’s State of the Union.

“It’s a good thing. it keeps the French safe. It keeps the US safe. It keeps our European allies safe.”

Peter King, a fellow Republican congressman, said that Mr Obama should not apologise for NSA operations in Europe. “The president should stop apologising, stop being defensive,” he said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “The reality is the NSA has saved thousands of lives not just in the United States but in France, Germany and throughout Europe. Quite frankly, the NSA has done so much for our country and so much for the president, he’s the commander in chief. He should stand with the NSA.”'

What's that phrase - 'Sauce for the goose...?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 09:18

That's a ridiculous strawman, saying Russia isn't responsible for all the ills of the Western world.
Of course noone is claiming that

But just because they weren't the original cause doesn't mean they aren't taking advantage and stirring up trouble now.

They didn't start most of the fires, but they are pouring on petrol now

The far right in Europe and the US love Putin. In the US, a poll of Republicans found they supported Putin over Obama by a large margin.
Because Putin praises and supports rightwing leaders.

I just don't get it. WHY all these posts in support of fascist Putin ?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 09:20

May to say she'll accept Hard Brexit and sacrifice everything else to end freedom of movement.
Does this count as her "talking down the pound" ?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/15/theresa-may-uk-is-prepared-to-accept-hard-brexit

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 09:22

If May were alleged to be making her decisions as PM because of (imaginary example !) - her financial interests in Syrian business deals, loans enabled by the Syrian government, her friendship with Assad - there would be an immediate demand for an enquiry.

You are very down on Assad. There are lots of good reasons to be opposed to him.

But the alternative to helping Assad regain control of Syria is allowing ISIS to take over.

I really do not understand why you can't understand that ISIS must be stopped, and that the ideal conditions that we might all like to see in Syria as alternatives to ISIS are pie in the sky for the time being. The world is stuck with Assad as the only credible alternative. Like it or lump it.

Mistigri · 15/01/2017 09:27

Russia already hacked the German Parliament in 2015

The US hacked Merkel's personal phone for many years.

Let's be absolutely clear here. Condemning Russian interference in European and U.S. politics absolutely does NOT mean exonerating US hacking. We should condemn both.

But I don't think anyone has suggested that the US hacking Merkel's phone was in the pursuit of an overt US political agenda vis à vis German domestic politics (ie with the overt aim of influencing the election of Merkel or her successor). It was aimed at gaining national advantage and it was an outrageous invasion of privacy (as well as being a massive foreign policy fail). But it wasn't a direct attempt to subvert the democratic process in Germany.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2017 09:31

But just because they weren't the original cause doesn't mean they aren't taking advantage and stirring up trouble now.

They didn't start most of the fires, but they are pouring on petrol now

You sincerely believe that, for reasons I find hard to fathom.
But are they?

My posts are in support of critical thought btw.
Calling for credible evidence and refusal to climb aboard a speeding bandwagon is not equal to support for an alleged fascist.

^The far right in Europe and the US love Putin. In the US, a poll of Republicans found they supported Putin over Obama by a large margin.
Because Putin praises and supports rightwing leaders.^

So people inclined to identify with or hold authoritarian attitudes support authoritarian leaders. Your point is?

That paragraph of yours goes around in a full circle. What is the word 'because' doing there?

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