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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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TuckersBadLuck · 14/01/2017 10:25

BigChocFrenzy I am baffled by the requirement for private health insurance for EU citizens residing longterm.

If you follow the link from the Guardian article it seems that the European Commission agree that access to the NHS fulfills the requirement for health insurance. europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-417_EN.htm

Under the Free Movement Directive, EU citizens who settle in another EU country but do not work there may be required to have sufficient resources and sickness insurance. The United Kingdom, however, does not consider entitlement to treatment by the UK public healthcare scheme (NHS) as sufficient. This breaches EU law.

Kaija · 14/01/2017 10:32

Thanks for that red. It is very interesting, and a little bit reassuring.

TuckersBadLuck · 14/01/2017 10:36

Relationship between EU and US very strong contrary to what the Anglo-Saxon press describes

Anglo-Saxon press?? Is that a thing then?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 11:03

I was already aware that the European Commission started proceedings against the Uk wrt the private insurance requirement.
However, I fear that one of the goals May has for Brexit is to remove accountability and rights - except for those that affect the superwealthy.

Particularly unjust aspects of the health insurance requirement - which I hope will be challenged legally:
. Retrospective - people need to prove they had insurance for years before the regulation came into effect
. Unequal treatment on grounds of nationality - people paying tax and NI for years but they or their family cannot receive the same access to the nhs as if they were all British citizens.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 11:12

More hopeful for Brits working / wanting to work in the EU, though, looks like Guy Verhofstadt's proposal is feasible:

"The European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed that they will offer British citizens the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens."

www.gherson.com/blog/eu-negotiators-will-offer-brits-an-individual-opt-in-to-remain-eu-citizens-chief-negotiator-confirms/
(Gherson is a top law firm, specialising in UK immigration and human rights law)

< crosses fingers really hard >
Would be perfect for me (mixed race woman) because I feel European, no longer British and not yet German.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 11:14

And contrary to May's nasty spewing Angry I am not a "citizen of nowhere"

Mistigri · 14/01/2017 11:59

All in all, report is reasonable and fair and right. Its difficult to argue with unless your name is Nigel, Paul or Arron.

It's not just UKIP that will have issues with some of those conclusions. Redwood and Gove, to name just two Tories, have both claimed that leaving the EU is a simple matter of walking out and shutting the door behind you.

RTB's excellent post above needs to be read in conjunction with DAG's latest blog post which looked at why he believes that a hard brexit is an inevitable outcome of triggering A50. Read the comments too, as they are particularly well informed as well as being civil and apparently troll-free.

jackofkent.com/2017/01/an-argument-as-to-why-a-hard-brexit-will-be-the-natural-and-direct-consequence-of-an-article-50-notitification/

Mistigri · 14/01/2017 12:05

And it's worth emphasising that parts of the Brexit committee report were NOT agreed unanimously. Gove, Lilley, Raab and several others voted against the part about a transitional agreement, for example.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 12:38

Adam Bienkov @AdamBienkov
Stella Creasy warns Labour against becoming a "pale imitation of the populists." #Fab17

KirithAhluwalia ‏*@dreamer*_ka
"I'm not asking you to agree with Farage, argue with him!" @stellacreasy #Fab17

(((Eli Barrott))) ‏*@elibarrott*
'I cannot be part of an alliance with people who put a passport ahead of public interest' says @stellacreasy #Fab17

Rob Shepherd @robshepherd
At #Fab17 @stellacreasy says if you don't get Mrs Brown's Boys and, in US, Duck Hunters, you don't connect with real society.

The Fabian Society ‏*@thefabians*
"To do this we need a grown up socialism that realises networks are the future of our movement" @stellacreasy #fab17

Adam Bienkov ‏**@AdamBienkov**
Stella Creasy: If I thought ending freedom of movement would help young people I'd back Brexit but it will only curtail their freedom #Fab17

Stella Creasy doing a speech today for centre left think tank The Fabian Society.

The New European ‏*@TheNewEuropean*
Tell our new columnist Arron Banks what you really think. Email thebrexiteer*@theneweuropean*.co.uk

No other leavers were available? The New European is playing to his agenda rather than finding a voice that perhaps takes another Leaver so they can set an alternative agenda instead. Get out the echo chamber and understand the other side but I'm with Stella Creasy on this - someone needs to put down an alternative version and vision. I thought that's the purpose of The New European was.

UKIP get enough airtime elsewhere. I don't see what this achieves really. I thought the platform was about being an alternative to the existing media and promoting other views that are not being shared.

Analysis what Banks says by all means. But don't give him yet another platform. This will not give a truly critical assessment of what he is about nor will it somehow enlighten readers.

Get someone who knows a thing or two about propaganda. Assess the background of Banks and where these political messages are originating from. Talk about the language he is deliberately using and the cleaner cut image (as an alternative to Farage) that he is now trying to cultivate (and by having as a columnist you are helping). Understand how he is using tried and tested techniques and how they have been used in other countries to devastating effect. Look at how his financial arrangements are 'interesting'.

But for the lot of god, don't let him play you like a fiddle like this. The man has actively stated he wants to end liberalism and he used imagery in leave.eu stuff campaigning which needs a real deconstruction in the media so other people understand just how sinister it is.

I think this is a spectacular misjudgement.

Simon Cox ‏*@SimonFRCox* 29m
29 minutes ago

Simon Cox Retweeted Kevin Parlon
Yesterday I pointed out @Arron_banks is a racist demagogue. Some people take that to mean I like the fact of mass migration. I don't. 1/
Migration is often by people with little chance where they are: ppl who would rather stay put. A fairer world wd have much less migration 2/
People who work for a living may depend on migration . In 1930s Tebbit's dad "got on his bike" to look for work 3/
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/7858570/Norman-Tebbit-my-father-got-on-his-bike-to-look-for-a-job.html
So migration is a life-saver. But it's also really disruptive. Scots Highlands abandoned by emigration. New arrivals with different lives 4/
Migration requires communities & governments to respond. In East England: new houses for the Brits moving there 5/
www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/we-need-build-more-houses-12417542
Mass migration: by 19C & 20C Europeans to US & Australia, by 21C Syrians to Europe, is a response to broken societies. A sign of problems 6/
So I don't welcome mass migration. I want a world where it doesn't have to happen. I don't stir up hate against migrants because of that 7
Hatred of "outsiders" doesn't reduce migration: it drives it. Rohingya flee Burma because of racism. Kurds flee Turkey because of hatred. 8/
So if we really want less migration, we don't build walls. We build peaceful, open democracies. 9/9

No one is setting an agenda on these lines properly. No, not even the Lib Dems.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 12:40

And it's worth emphasising that parts of the Brexit committee report were NOT agreed unanimously. Gove, Lilley, Raab and several others voted against the part about a transitional agreement, for example.

Had not realised that. At least its on record from the committee though, so that if we do have queues at ports we all know exactly where to look.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 12:48

apnews.com/2662ed1c14da43848eededfdc26a03b3?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP
Merkel backs multilateral approach as Trump presidency looms

Asked at a news conference Saturday about protectionist tendencies in the U.S., Merkel said she will seek a dialogue with the new president.

"I don't want to get ahead of that, but I am very much convinced that we as partners benefit more if we act together than if everyone solves problems for themselves, and that is a constant fundamental attitude on my part," she said.

Why can't we have a Merkel not a May?

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lalalonglegs · 14/01/2017 12:49

"I cannot be part of an alliance with people who put a passport ahead of public interest," says @stellacreasy**

That pretty much nails it for me. It could well become the "We have more in common with each other than the things that divide us" for 2017.

lalalonglegs · 14/01/2017 12:52

I wonder if, as is widely rumoured to be the case with Trump, Banks is much more interested in celebrity than politics? He is certainly a bizarre columnist choice for the New European.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 12:59

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/14/exclusive-labour-demand-commons-vote-final-brexit-deal-theresa/
Exclusive: Labour to demand Commons vote on final Brexit deal if Theresa May loses Supreme Court case

Labour will use the government’s expected defeat in the Supreme Court this month to force Theresa May to give MPs a vote over the final Brexit deal.

The Telegraph has learnt that the party plans to table an amendment demanding MPs get a veto on the terms of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union.

Should the move not win enough votes among MPs, the party will use its position in the House of Lords to urge the Government to make the guarantee.

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SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 13:02

"I cannot be part of an alliance with people who put a passport ahead of public interest,"

That statement works for both Leave & Remain supporters.

As a Leave voter, I believe it's in the public interest to leave the EU and cannot understand why people view having an EU passport as more important.

As a Remain voter, I believe it's in the public interest to remain in the EU and cannot understand why people view having a British passport as more important.

SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 13:08

Demanding a veto on the negotiated terms of leaving is daft.
This opens up the possibility of the EU offering the shittest deal possible, which parliament will vote against - thus playing into the breakdown of exiting with a good deal for all parties & a cliff-edge, shambolic exit.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 13:20

Its about political borders rather than the passport itself as far as I understand it SemiPermanent. The passport is about this nonsense of wanting a blue passport and campaigning for that.

The public interest is about what's economically and politically the best thing for the country as a whole rather than naked nationalism.

It needs to be stressed that a European identity is not the same as a nationalist identity. (As discussed previously its about co-operation and shared values rather than flag waving).

Shared values and action are important for tackling security threats and how tax for large multinationals is deal with for example.

Nationalism is being presented as the way to solve these problems when it effectively drives many of them instead. 'Stop immigration and there will be more jobs', just doesn't cut it for so many different reasons.

Immigration might be adding to the problem but immigration is not the issue per se.

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lalalonglegs · 14/01/2017 13:21

SemiPermanent - I would definitely read "passport" as shorthand for immigration/controlling borders. I don't think it is literally about the colour or provenance of a passport but, you may be right, there could be more ambiguity. I will have to see if I can find the whole speech and the context in which Creasey said it Smile.

woman12345 · 14/01/2017 13:24

Thanks for that red. It is very interesting, and a little bit reassuring. me too and misti for jack of kent blog.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 13:26

SemiPermanent Sat 14-Jan-17 13:08:10
Demanding a veto on the negotiated terms of leaving is daft.
This opens up the possibility of the EU offering the shittest deal possible, which parliament will vote against - thus playing into the breakdown of exiting with a good deal for all parties & a cliff-edge, shambolic exit.

I don't disagree. However I do think its also important that consensus on a deal is there. If the deal is totally awful then what? This is where legally being able to reverse a50 comes in. And of course that isn't without problems and pitfalls either.

How do you ensure you do get a consensus deal? It should be done earlier in the process. Reality the whole thing should be open and transparent and done with public debate along the way. The trouble is that May is insisting on this nonsense of a poker game and negotiations needing to be secret (which is bollocks) and Labour are going along with that.

It just shows just how ridiculously Brexit is being handled by everyone.

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woman12345 · 14/01/2017 13:28

This is still a parliamentary democracy, much to May's annoyance.

EmilyAlice · 14/01/2017 14:40

Back in 2008 people who were not working but below UK state pension age faced a similar situation wrt health cover in France. They had previously been allowed to pay 8% of their income into a health "caisse" to obtain cover. The Sarkozy government withdrew this and said that everyone had to obtain private cover. This was impossible for anyone with a pre-existing condition such as hypertension or diabetes. After a successful campaign the EU overruled this and said that they should be allowed to continue to pay for access to the health system.
Yes, the "Anglo-Saxon press" is frequently mentioned here. I think it must be the Chronicle with Bede as editor-in-chief. Grin

SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 14:44

However I do think its also important that consensus on a deal is there.

Agree completely- but how to do so without compromising ourselves?
(I have no answers!)

woman12345 · 14/01/2017 16:15

Article here on how SNP's dominance in Scotland is now almost total. It cites daft examples to prove this including NS and her mum on a Hogmanay programme and newborn baby gift boxes. But the one Scottish newspaper which used to support Labour now has NS column.
If Labour wasn't so dead in Scotland, it wouldn't be so dead in England, and it's not even allowed to exist in NI?
Is this Scottish one party state a good thing? To me it seems to harm democracy in Scotland and England, and all's not sunshine and roses north of the border wrt police service, education too.
Did anyone read that the Orkney wants to claim independence from mainland Scotland and SNP?
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/snps-domination-scotland-complete/

SwedishEdith · 14/01/2017 16:51

"Is this Scottish one party state a good thing?"

I don't think it's healthy at all. I don't know the figures but is it not like the Leave situation in that a big minority do not feel represented? Scots I know, living in Scotland and England, are not SNP at all.

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