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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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woman12345 · 13/01/2017 17:33

www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2017/01/wholl-win-stoke-trent
Bush thinks lib/lab split vote might give tory win.

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 17:38

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/5878a635e4b094e1aa9dc530?timestamp=1484312828256
300 women's marches across the world next Sat! Smile

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 17:44

correction: 281 marches. Britain has is hosting 8, the highest number in any European country.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 17:55

Swedish, my feeling is that even that wouldn't help. If someone has gone UKIP, then they went on the basis of campaigning which isn't sophisticated and simplistic in nature. A Paul Mason type isn't necessarily going to get through to that crowd as much as anything because he's too much of an intellectual despite his message. The way he talks still is not the same language. Plus they would need a long slow build of a campaign to get people to know a candidate like that, which isn't possible in a by-election. It means it would have to be an already established local candidate and the profile of local Labour is not exactly positive and isn't going in the right direction for that to get that kind of cut through.

For the time being, at least, those voters who have gone UKIP are staying put especially with Corbyn in charge. For Labour to turn it around, they have to be doing something significant both locally and nationally and there just isn't any evidence of that. Indeed its quite the reverse.

I really do think that Labour are in BIG trouble here for that reason.

Equally, I think the 'big shift' to UKIP has already happened in Stoke. The type of views that have helped them have not been silenced politically in Stoke because the BNP have had a presence here for a long time. If you were going to go UKIP I think the chances are you would already have done so as the alternative option has effectively been there when it hasn't been in other similar places. Neither the BNP nor UKIP have proved themselves at local level to persuade more that they are credible at governing when they have been given the choice. Indeed they have demonstrated quite the opposite.

The EU referendum got out 65% turnout versus the 49.9% turnout. That's where UKIP are most likely to pick up any extra votes imo. That requires them to get out the vote of people who don't vote in a by-election. That's no mean feat especially when you don't have boots on the ground and a by-election isn't likely to generate an inescapable political environment. I'm sure Leave.Eu will be on the case, but the 'protest' has already been made. I'm not sure people really feel the need to give Corbyn a kicking in the same way they wanted to kick Cameron and Osborne even though he's unpopular. They just don't care enough to come out for that.

The sheer number of Independents on the Council really says all you need to know about how political parties are viewed in Stoke Central.

There is a hard core of Conservative voters that seems reasonably stable and there doesn't look to be any reason why they would gain more, nor really any indication where they would gain from.

From what I can see its ALL about turnout and motivation.

OP posts:
Kaija · 13/01/2017 18:03

What if it were Paul Mason himself, rather than a Paul Mason type. Do we think he might head in this direction? A 3 year stint might be about right.

WifeofDarth · 13/01/2017 18:13

Just now on Radio 2 news - 'Teresa May says Christopher Steele hadn't worked for the British Government for many years'.
The minimising continues ....

lalalonglegs · 13/01/2017 18:34

Yet those pesky experts keep coming to undermine her, Darth. Our former man in Moscow says that he knows Christopher Steel and he wouldn't make things up.

Corcory · 13/01/2017 18:48

Very interesting Lala. Just makes Trump's childish out busts about US secret services just seem even more ridicules.

Corcory · 13/01/2017 18:55

Very interesting Lala. Just makes Trump's childish out busts about US secret services just seem even more ridicules. He hasn't a clue has he.

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 19:30

"From what I can see its ALL about turnout and motivation."

Agree completely and that those who are Ukip because they've got BNP sympathies are a lost cause. But, in Crewe (not so far away, similar feel to Stoke), Ukip tosser councillor Brian Silvester goaded the Labour candidate Tasha Maroni in a recent council by-election about how few followers she had on Twitter (she had about 3 and he had 11.5K). Well, big Twitter campaign, she's got 12.9k followers now and won taking 62% of the vote. www.crewechronicle.co.uk/news/labour-win-crewe-town-council-12262315 Yes, low turnout (but Stoke's was the lowest at last GE) and a council seat but, with a strong campaign, things can happen.

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 19:33

"What if it were Paul Mason himself, rather than a Paul Mason type. Do we think he might head in this direction? A 3 year stint might be about right."

Yes, the brevity of the post might be a positive for some. Ed Balls? Grin

TheNorthRemembers · 13/01/2017 19:36

Yeah, I was just thinking "Do they like Strictly in Stoke?"

Kaija · 13/01/2017 19:39

A post-Strictly Ed Balls. Of course! I bet it would be a landslide.

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 19:44

Ed Balls? He has a plan, and that dancey programme was part of it. Watch out for Ed over the next few years, maybe not for this constituency but I think he's coming back. Mason is adorable, but he's SWP.(was Trotskyist Workers' Power) and it shows. There seems to be a perception that Labour is bland Blairites or rabid trots. I don't get it, when there are so many lovely ordinary activists in the local parties who would make stupendous MPs.

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 19:46

But the Liberal Democrats do local organisation and activism brilliantly, and despite last year's calamitous result, I think they've re grouped and are on their way back. Sunderland, I still can't believe it!

GloriaGaynor · 13/01/2017 19:49

'Teresa May says Christopher Steele hadn't worked for the British Government for many years'.

You're never exMI6, unless you actually leave on bad terms like Richard Tomlinson. If you supposedly work in business intelligence you would still be an MI6 asset.

I totally agree with the pp who said the Christopher Steele story is hooey.

The so-called report was a nonsense - hearsay i.e. reported speech, and wild allegations with zero evidence. An intelligence document would report speech exactly - because the detail and the nuance would be crucial. It would also have hard evidence to support any claim.

The idea that a man who wrote something that poor would be 'respected' in the intelligence communtity is laughable.

Some part of the UK government or the SIS has agreed with certain factions in the US to back up this story, and is following through with 'news management'. SIS tends to feed stories to the Telegraph and DM first because they're more Queen and country. But Russia is not playing along.

I noticed the document contains Americanisms 'real estate' and 'World Cup Soccer Tournament' which could be argued to be in line with being written as a US commission, but it could also indicate that it was written within the US.

Why Americans would use a British business intelligence company when they have their own which are subject to their own secrecy laws and a more secure information chain is perplexing...

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 20:59

I'm not very good at spy thrillers, and don't really understand all this, but:
Louise Mensch ‏*@LouiseMensch* 1h1 hour ago
Man just killed was chief of staff to Sechin who met Carter Page when he collaborated on Trump's behalf with Putin

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 21:03

Just saw that woman - posted a thread on the Trump thread - will go and copy for here.

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 21:06

Louise Mensch just tweeted this thread from Christo Grozev which sounds interesting. (And I don't know who Christo Grozev is).

Erovinkin was x Chief Staff for Sechin, appt by Putin. FSB General. . One of few ppl w access scope (incl Putin) boasted by Steele source

Initially on Dec 26, several RU publications headlined with "Sechin's chief of staff killed"...later quietly changed headline to "died"

Last, (now-dead) Erovinkin was Managing Director of Rosneft at time of this alleged deal commitment with Carter Page

Initially, FSB-linked @lifenews_ru reported Sechin's associate was killed, found dead on back seat of company car. Later changed story to

.."was driving himself, got a heart attack but managed to park the car before he died". Initial story not searchable

Might Sechin's very close associate , ex FSB Oleg Erovinkin, found dead "of heart failure" in his car on Dec 26, have been Steele's source?

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 21:07

The Christopher Steele stuff seems a bit fishyGloria, but something's clearly afoot. Russia has something on him. Is this the GOP going into all out war to get rid of him? Daily Telegraph reported US spies 'warned Israel not to share intelligence with Trump'.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2017 21:08

Those who like Putin and / or Trump are outraged at the allegations, but the Russian connections are far too serious to just dismiss.
Allegations against US presidents have been very thoroughly investigated in recent years - e.g. Nixon, Reagan, Clinton - Remember how many years the Starr commission spent peering into Bill Clinton's affairs.

I can imagine American politicians using a private British Security form precisely because they would be outside the usual US channels.

Yes, of course people leave MI6, as they leave other civil service jobs or the military. It's not the priesthood. I knew a couple of women retired from Mi5 - they just got on with their own lives, like anyone else.
Ex security services are required to keep certain secrets, but they are otherwise free to write books or start private security firms, just like ex-police do. They can work for private clients, who will pay them for this work

It's not in dispute that some of Trump's Republican rivals in the GOP primaries employed the firm and that Democrats took over afterwards.
btw, some interesting cross-party cooperation there - I wonder if Bush could have been the Republican, because they were clearly outraged by him. George W has said he didn't vote for Trump (or Clinton either)

When I write reports for (highly educated) US recipients, I switch to US spellings and names for things, because many Americans would regard UK spellings as typos and not understand some names.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2017 21:23

When the GOP realised their dumbed-down primary voters had chosen Trump, they had 2 choices:

  1. Admit their party had chosen someone batshit, possibly a Manchurian Candidate
  • This would plunge the party into civil war for decades and keep them out of power - maybe until US demographics kept them permanently out.
  • The Democrats would win the WH and appoint several Supreme Court judges who would make decisions vital to the GOP electability, e.g. voting rights and corporations as people. Also decisions that could affect the profits of GOP leaders and donors, e.g. environment, minimum wage, strike laws.
  1. Help him to win and get rid of him asap afterwards, before he could wreck the country / world. This would involve gathering information about him, keeping the lid on until after the election, then releasing what they know.

They chose option 2

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 21:38

BigChoc there is a constitutional procedure without impeachment to remove him from office: 25th Amendment Section 4

GloriaGaynor · 13/01/2017 21:50

I think it's highly likely Trump is up to his neck in dodgy Russian contacts and he's been cavorting with hookers in hotel rooms around the world. I truly hope some footage exists somewhere.

It's the format in which the claims have been put forward that is clearly hokum.

With regard to SIS it really depends on your role - this man is still supposedly working (or was) for a business intelligence. In that case he will still be an asset.

It's not in dispute that some of Trump's Republican rivals in the GOP primaries employed the firm and that Democrats took over afterwards

It is in dispute, nothing about this is clear. Earlier narratives had it that the Democrats commissioned it and passed it to the Republicans.

If rival Republicans had commissioned it, why wait until he's been elected to use it?

When I write reports for (highly educated) US recipients

Have you ever put your name to a report of that quality? All hearsay, allegations and no fact? I'm surprised that anyone would be believe that document is a genuine piece of research.

It's done it's job as a smear, and one has to be grateful for that. I don't know who's trying to get rid of him, but I hope they succeed. His wild attacks on US intelligence agencies since will likely speed his demise.

I reckon he will be impeached or shot from a grassy knoll within a year.

BestIsWest · 13/01/2017 21:57

Merely Streep, now Stephen King

Pfffft. Like this guy @StephenKing knows a thing about horror. He's probably been on TV less than me, too. Sad. @realDonaldTrump