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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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woman12345 · 13/01/2017 14:53

I do think I am free to defend why I posted that and why I think its important. A huge factor in why we are in this mess because of echo chambers
Many thanks again, red, really interesting Flowers.
I know Sunderland well (family). I am absolutely astonished at a LD win. Solid dyed in the wool labour, until the shipyards closed. Much more surprised than the Richmond result. And Three Rivers too, Herts.
Although I've never voted LD, their local organisation and activism is phenomenal, and that has done them no harm in this popular swing. Interesting that the ukips are so crap at organisation and skint.
Very interesting news. Smile

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 15:02

Following on from that article about the effects on the haulage industry:
I crossed Europe pre EU in 1989. Got a bus to Poland. At each motorway stop we had to scramble to get new currency, police and border controllers had to come on the bus at each border to check everyone. We sometimes got away with using dollars, definitely not pounds. That was just on a holiday, imagine having to do it for your living as a lorry driver with all that that would involve, and that's just one industry. It's clearly financially untenable.

SemiPermanent · 13/01/2017 15:15

For many people who supported/voted UKIP previously, UKIP have now served their purpose so are no longer relevant.

So long as Brexit goes ahead, people will shift their vote to other parties - I suspect that the quality of candidate regardless of party affiliation will matter more now than previously traditional tribal politics.

However, if Brexit is thwarted or subverted, UKIP will gain support again.

whatwouldrondo · 13/01/2017 15:16

I have found the links to the Peter North blog interesting because he does appreciate the complexity.

It is fair to say that the logistics industry, which i worked in for a while, and still help out with consultancy, are seeing Brexit as a huge downside risk in three main areas, not just the impositions of tariffs and duties on some goods and border controls on people and goods, with the obvious implications in terms of barriers to the movement of goods, slowdown in the supply chains, possible bottlenecks as a result of failing to put adequate people and process in place to manage the volumes (see how the lorries backed up into Kent during strike action / tunnel closures), increased red tape and bureaucracy, and the impact of reduced volumes. There is also real concern about how the end of FOM will affect an existing shortage of lorry drivers, many of whom are now recruited in the EU . It is agreed that current EU regulations are common sense in safety terms but there will be a temptation as well as improving apprenticeship schemes to water down requirements for a license to drive an HGV, given recent events there can be no justification for that in safety terms but if the logistics industry is struggling to get drivers?

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 15:22

And it's really good to hear from some one in business not a professional commentator.

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 15:31

Oh dear to mn deletion. It seemed a fair statement to me..
And surely birdy didn't report it?!

Anyway thank you to Patty Penguin again. I appreciated your reply.

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 15:41

Totally agree with Peter North's assessment. Not just customs but excise as well www.gov.uk/guidance/receiving-storing-and-moving-excise-goods

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 15:53

Is this a secret ecological action to destroy industry and factory farming?
Wonder what's going to happen to HS2 if business is going to come courtesy of non EU?

Kaija · 13/01/2017 15:55

Does everyone remember at the time of the secret promise that Theresa May made to Nissan, someone (I think Vince Cable) suggested that the only assurance they could have legally given them was membership of the Customs Union.

Is it possible that the apparent lack of concern about these fairly apocalyptic customs issues is due to the fact that the government are confident of remaining in the Customs Union?

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 15:57

They may be confident, but their ineptitude so far doesn't bode well.

Lico · 13/01/2017 15:59

There is a very good article in the Financial Times today : 'The EU 27's message to Brexit Britain'. I cannot link it here for some reason I can't understand but Interesting point with the UK Government ensuring that some news do not reach UK voters .

lalalonglegs · 13/01/2017 15:59

The government may well be confident of remaining in the customs union but, since they are still preaching cake eating and keeping, I'd be sceptical about how much reliance I placed on their confidence. I'd be amazed if Nissan had gambled with its future revenues just on the government's word that we could remain tariff-free.

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 16:07

Interesting article, Lico. Straight talking from Dieter Kempf.

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 13/01/2017 16:16

www.ft.com/content/a6be290c-d8bd-11e6-944b-e7eb37a6aa8e
The Financial Times article

Lico · 13/01/2017 16:23

Thanks for linking , Martian

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 16:33

Turnout in the Sunderland by-election was just 24%

Some more thoughts on Stoke Central. This is something of a revision of what I thought previously this morning after seeing this and running the figures.

In 2015 the turn out was 49.9%. At a Constituency By-election you would expect an even lower turnout out. Possibly one as low as the council one in Sunderland last night.

I've just been looking at the differences between 2010 and 2015 between parties and how it breaks down:
2015
Lab - 12220
UKIP - 7041
Con - 7008
Ind - 2120
Lib - 1296
Green - 1123

2010
Lab - 12605
UKIP - 1402
Con - 6833
Lib - 709
BNP - 2502
And combined Ind - 1956

This means a difference between 2010 and 2015 of
Lab -385
UKIP +5639
Con +175
Ind Collectively +164
Lib -5743
BNP -2502
Green +1123

For the sake of argument lets ignore the smallest changes there - the Con and the Independents and say that they are more or less the same voters voting the same way.

Then you start to look and who switched to who.

Starting off with the easy one, lets assume all the BNP went to UKIP. That explains 2502 votes of UKIP increase, leaving 3137 to explain.

The big question of course is how all of those LD voters changed. There are 5743 of them.

The Conservative vote didn't really change nor did the Labour one. So something is being masked here, UNLESS all the Lib Dems swingers all went to UKIP or Green and nothing else. Which seems highly unlikely. Nor can it really be explained by people staying home. The difference in the number of voters between 2010 and 2015 was there was 1386 who voted in 2010 who didn't bother in 2015.

Far more likely is a shift from the Lib Dems to the Green, Lab and Cons, a shift from Lab to Greens and UKIP and a shift from the Cons to UKIP in smaller numbers somehow. (Noting that UKIP pickup in Stoke Central most likely to come from Lab rather than Cons).

Whatever the effect in 2015 was, there is liable to be at least a partial reversal, combined with a lower turnout.

However, lets take perhaps the most likely shift in voting for the constituency profile.

Take the assumption that every Lib Dem voter in 2010 went to Lab in 2015 and every extra, non former BNP, UKIP voter in 2015 came from Lab for simplicity. Then take all the Greens in 2015 from that (assumption that all Green voters came from either 2010 Lib or Lab voters) and then take the stay at home voters out. And finally remove the extra 2015 Con votes and Ind votes.

That's 12605 (2010 Lab) + 5743 (Former Lib Dems) - 3137 (went to UKIP) - 1123 (2015 Greens) - 1386 (2015 stay at homes) - 175 (extra 2015 Con votes) - 164 (extra 2015 Ind votes) = 12363

That's really not far off the 2015 mark for Lab in 2015 which was 12220.

Whilst its a very crude flow of voters it shows just how important those Lib Dem and UKIP swings have been and potentially how they affect Labour most of all.

If those theoretical former 2010 Lib Dem voters were to abandon Lab and go back to the Lib Dems (ignoring the Green element)

12220 - 5743 = 6477.

Thus:
Labour 2015 less Lib = 6477
UKIP 2015 = 7041
Con 2015 = 7008
Lib 2010 = 7039

If you were to base the turnout on the changes in turnout being similar to Sleaford or Richmond and factor that in too...

That 50/1 offered on the Lib Dems at one point this morning looks a lot more generous than I originally thought. It has the very real potential to be a wide open four horse race, especially if you think Labour voters are most depressed/less likely to show up and Lib Dems are the best motivated at the moment.

I suppose my real question is more about how motivated Con and Kippers are to vote are going to be too and just how much Brexit will play into this. Looking at it though, the people who have been swing voters, in this constituency in the past and are likely to shift vote again, are perhaps also the least likely to also be Leave voters too. I don't seem former Labour, now UKIP voters shifting to the Conservatives. Nor do I see former Labour, now UKIP voters going back to Labour.

I very genuinely can see Stoke Central as winnable for anyone.

It may come down to who has the most and best resources both human and financial in campaigning.

OP posts:
woman12345 · 13/01/2017 16:37

Cheers red.This is something for later
www.indy100.com/article/michael-moore-trump-fake-news-journalists-7526281 On why and how truth should not be a casualty.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 16:47

And surely birdy didn't report it?!

I didn't. I'd never report something that said I was a know it all. Grin

SapphireStrange · 13/01/2017 16:49

I'd be amazed if Nissan had gambled with its future revenues just on the government's word that we could remain tariff-free.

Well, me too, but then the question is what DID the government give their word on?

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 16:49

I knew that birdy.

I have you pencilled in for my duet partner next chrimbo for Fairytale of New York!

woman12345 · 13/01/2017 16:53

'campaigning' is what LD do so well. I don't seem former Labour, now UKIP voters shifting to the Conservatives. Nor do I see former Labour, now UKIP voters going back to Labour interesting. I hope the non tory and ukip vote doesn't get dangerously split. Sunderland changes everything ( never thought I'd say that!)

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 16:55

WineWine

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 16:58

Yer a scumbag!Wine

SwedishEdith · 13/01/2017 17:00

" Nor do I see former Labour, now UKIP voters going back to Labour. "

That's surely going to depend on who they put up there. A Paul Mason-type could work there.

NotDavidTennant · 13/01/2017 17:27

One issue is what quality of candidate the parties can attract. Whoever wins the by-election is going to be searching around for a new seat within three years, so I can't see it being attractive to anyone with long-term ambitions.