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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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TheNorthRemembers · 13/01/2017 12:42

There were all these rumours that UKIP have no money, so do we think they can put up a fight in Stoke? They traditionally have no volunteers, so they would have to pay their way.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 12:49

SemiPermanent
I think there's a bit too much being read into a switch to Lib Dem being pro-Remain votes at times.
I'm a Leave voter, yet I would vote Lib Dem over Labour at the moment - I suspect there's quite a few like me in former Labour strongholds at the mo.

Quite possibly. As I say above, I think Brexit is a less important issue to a lot of voters than things like the NHS. UKIP are more toxic to more liberal leave (with a little l) voters than people realise. The Conservatives are the incumbents who everyone hates. Labour are just no opposition and no one knows what the hell they stand for anymore.

If people continue to do what seems to have been the case for a long time - and vote for the 'least worst option' - rather than this idea of voting FOR a party, this is where the Lib Dems win. They were blamed for all the bad things whilst in coalition, yet with the way the Tories are now behaving and bulldozing everything and everyone, it has the effect of making the Lib Dems look as if they did put up resistance and stop things from being a lot worse sooner. They are once again the outsider.

UKIP would like to be the outsider, but they aren't - not really, not anymore. No grassroots, part of the 'leave mandate' that's going nowhere even though they profess they aren't, in bed with Trump, a stack full of sleaze and dubious conduct at all levels.

Key point about the referendum vote that showed up in analysis. People voted to Leave based on domestic issues far more than is given credit for and had surprisingly little interest or knowledge about the EU itself beyond not liking immigration much.

A surprising number of Lib Dem voters from 2010 switched to UKIP in 2015 too.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 12:54

peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/brexit-price-of-failure.html
Brexit: the price of failure

The short of it is that there is absolutely no basis on which we would unilaterally withdraw from the EU without creating a national emergency. From there all the leverage would be in the hands of the EU and we would be out with the begging bowl. It would be national humiliation and could even see the army deployed to help manage the ports. Confidence in the UK would collapse and the markets would go into a tailspin.

So when you see some idiotic Toryboy saying "we should be prepared to walk away from the table" they are assuming quite a lot. Unless by preparation they mean an emergency diversion plan and a standing order to prevent lorries taking to motorways unless heading for a UK destination then you are in fact dealing with a textbook Brexit moron and as a health and safety measure said toryboy or Kiptard should be shot on sight.

This from a respected leave blogger. Thank fuck someone on the Leave side is stressing this in no uncertain terms.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 13:00

Corbyn has come up with a good proposal for a policy though. Its a vote winner:

Companies with HQs in Tax Havens will not be able to bid for government contracts.

That said, define 'tax haven'.

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HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 13:04

I don't really want to read the blog of someone so glib about shooting people on sight. Can you paraphrase why the logistics industry will go into meltdown?

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 13:07

Yeah, Red, I don't want to have to dirty my eyes reading your links or blogs. Just para-phrase them for us.

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2017 13:08

I wouldn't call him 'respected' given that he's an ex UKIP Brexiteer, with an entirely unworkable Brexit plan. But to his credit he's now very much pro soft Brexit, and his criticisms of hard Brexit are absolutely just.

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 13:10

Dirty my eyes?

F off.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 13:13

Can you paraphrase for me?

Corcory · 13/01/2017 13:27

Red - Why would you call Peter North 'a respected leave blogger'!
I had a look and he only has 39 followers!!!
He also has some very odd views which bear no relation to what any leaver I know believes.

PattyPenguin · 13/01/2017 13:30

HobbitTankard ..why (will) the logistics industry go into meltdown?

Clearance procedures at ports
Documentation for goods
Certificates for trucks
Licences for drivers
Checks for eligibility for employment in the UK

Just lots and lots of red tape, paperwork and delays.

Also, increased cost of fuel due to weakness of Sterling, and less work if exports go to countries outside the EU by air and sea instead of by road.

Those are the things the logistics and haulage periodicals are listing.

Badders123 · 13/01/2017 13:36

Everyone was so dismissive of goldsmiths defeat to the lib dems in a very high remain area.
But Sunderland....
Overwhelmingly voted leave and yet lib dems won on a strong anti brexit message.
Maybe seeing what trump is doing in America and what farage has done since the ref (I.e. Toady up to trump and say he is leaving Britain to live abroad) has givnd them buyers remorse?
Sunderland regrets leave vote.
Who knew?
🙄

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 13:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

missmoon · 13/01/2017 13:39

"I had a look and he only has 39 followers!!!"

He has 2,188 followers on Twitter. I don't know about respected, but his name does come up a lot in places like ConservativeHome and comments below Brexit-related articles.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 13:40

I don't know it all. Grin

I respect that red works hard at getting interesting blogs and links on these threads. I don't see why she has to read and explain them for us too.

TheNorthRemembers · 13/01/2017 13:41

Having thought about it, I think what they mean about the army being deployed is this: (disclosure: I have no idea how customs work in the UK)

Being in the EU customs union means that quite a large percentage of the bureaucracy involved
a) is carried out by customs forces elsewhere in the EU (e.g. goods travelling through France would have to undergo some administrative and physical checks there), so we need trained up extra officials by the thousands on day 1 of Brexit.
b) is enacted in Brussels, so we need new laws for every kind of widget on day 1 of Brexit, people who can draw up those rules and people who can apply those rules.
I know there will not be red tape without the EU, yada, yada, yada. But in the real world you do need new detailed customs rules and proper enlarged border and customs force, where you can't just slag the French off or bus DSS staff down from Newcastle every day.

Example: Customs procedures when transporting goods by road
www.gov.uk/guidance/customs-procedures-when-transporting-goods-by-road

HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 13:42

When you click you give bloggers revenue I believe. So I dont apologise for being choosy. Ever about anything really.

NotDavidTennant · 13/01/2017 13:42

Nuttall has based his leadership on the idea that UKIP can take white working class votes from Labour. He will have to make a serious effort of trying to take Stoke Central or his whole strategy will seen to be toothless.

My guess is that UKIP will scale back efforts in Copeland now and throw everything at Stoke.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 13:47

No, he wont be getting revenue from clicks on his blog.

Just an ego boost!

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 13:47

When I say respected, that's not MY personal view that I respected him as such. He IS respected in some leave circles. He actually has a plan too. However unworkable that might be or however you or I might find him and how he phrases things he has a certain following and credibility that others don't have. It therefore makes him influential and important.

I do think saying you don't want to 'dirty your eyes' is a bit of a cope out too. I appreciate your sentiment about him wanting to 'shoot people' being not great (I thought the word Kiptard was more offensive and hesitated over posting that rather than the former) but there have been a lot of rather dubious words that have come from Remain supporters too (particularly with regard to Farage which I equally don't condone).

Plus that kind of attitude reinforces the bubble stuff. You do need to 'read the other side' to get an incite on a range of views. Its not as if he's in Breitbart's league nor even the Daily Mail. (Even then I think there are times when reading Breitbart or the Fail is a necessarily evil purely to 'understand your enemy' if you will).

Don't read it, if you don't want to, but I don't think I should have to go further than that summary because it happens to simply be a pro-leave article. Those two paragraphs are perhaps un-pc, yes. But I also don't think its a great deal better/worse than some stuff I've read that's pro-Remain. Whilst I am biased and I do have very pro-Remain views I draw the line somewhere in terms of how closeted I want to be and am prepared to be.

Remainers SHOULD be reading a range of Leave views. I think it ironic that people are critical of Kippers - after they have heard what they say - if only because they get loads of airtime. But are not even prepared to go near something more moderate and also critical of Kippers.

The best we might get is a compromise we don't like. If you don't want to 'dirty yourself' then you are more likely to end up with chaotic Brexit from that unwillingness.

I am very pissed off at this attitude over that article

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HobbitTankard · 13/01/2017 13:50

Your motives appear noble but yer attitude stank!

birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/01/2017 13:57

Sorry red, It was me who said 'dirty my eyes' and I was being sarcastic- alas not v cleverly.

Sorry hobbit too, (but I like the noble motives bit!)

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2017 14:03

Well, if you want to put it quite so bluntly Hobbit.

Yes.

You can not win if you group all Leavers together. You can not win if you try and discuss a range of Leave views and show how they differ and why we need to understand how and why they are different.

I can't agree with everyone. Nor am I going to try. I do think I am free to defend why I posted that and why I think its important. A huge factor in why we are in this mess because of echo chambers.

Meh.

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TheNorthRemembers · 13/01/2017 14:13

Respected or not, do we think he has a point? Not in the shooting, but the customs problems.
My guess is that employing any extra staff will be a deal-breaker for the Tories. Or will they just privatise it all?

Arborea · 13/01/2017 14:34

Of course they'll privatise it! There is no reason why they wouldn't and it will make a shedload of money for people like Aaron Banks and others

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