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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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SwedishEdith · 12/01/2017 23:23

I suspect Dimbleby is a Brexiteer tbh. I doubt he has any say in the panel but I'd guess he's a Eurosceptic Tory.

Where's peregrina?

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 23:25

Actual figures for Sandhill:
LD 824
Lab 458
UKIP 343
CON 184
Green 23

OP posts:
iwanttoridemybicycle · 12/01/2017 23:29

The scientist lady is very giggly with Banks. Very rude when someone is speaking.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 23:29

Paul Mason trying to disentangle Corbyn's position on the single market.

I think I'm even more confused now, if that is possible.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 23:31

Stuart just got taken COMPLETELY apart by Paul Mason. Why did no one do that in June?

OP posts:
squishysquirmy · 12/01/2017 23:43

Arron banks: "capitalism replaced by something more sinister" - not completely sure what he's alluding to.

squishysquirmy · 12/01/2017 23:47

And he knows all about tax havens (wish someone else on the panel had made more of this)
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/15/panama-papers-reveal-offshore-secrets-arron-banks-brexit-backer

SnowmaggedonAgain · 12/01/2017 23:51

I took it he meant a rentier economy rather than an entrepreneurial one. His follow up was about taxing unearned wealth.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 23:51

Yes, was extraordinary to see him deliver all that with a more or less straight face, unchallenged.

squishysquirmy · 12/01/2017 23:54

He wants to appeal to "the people", but doesn't want to support any taxes which might hit him. Because all his wealth is "earned", natch.

SnowmaggedonAgain · 13/01/2017 00:06

That's what I took from it squishy!

squishysquirmy · 13/01/2017 00:24

He comes across as very articulate and measured on programmes like QT, whilst saying really nasty things elsewhere.

mathanxiety · 13/01/2017 04:36

“Whereas his boss McChrystal always took pains to avoid civilian losses, Flynn seemed less concerned about killing innocent Afghans”

They serve their Commander in Chief, BigChoc. So if the CinC shrugs, they shrug too. The truth is, nobody in the US is over-concerned with civilian losses in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or the mayhem in Libya, Yemen, etc.

Drone warfare was developed in the early 2000s to combat insurgency in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It has as its advantage the safety of US personnel, and the remoteness of most of the hit sites means western media can't be bothered covering what is going on. Estimates of the percentage of civilian killings vary from 4 to 35%. 'Congressional oversight' is only token in these conditions.

............
His wish to break the Iran deal (because Obama negotiated it ?)– which would empower Iranian hardliners and create even more war & chaos in the whole region.
He wishes to break the Iran deal because Benjamin Netanyahu has never supported it. This is the same Netanyahu who thumbed his nose at President Obama and accepted a hard right GOP invitation to address Congress on the topic of Iran.
blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/03/01/netanyahu-invite-is-a-symptom-of-boehners-grudge-match-against-the-u-s-constitution/ 'Why Boehner's invite to Netanyahu is unconstitutional'.
www.cbsnews.com/news/five-things-netanyahu-speech-congress/. More on the brouhaha.

............
The Putin dog story - the fictional part is that Putin knew Merkel was afraid of dogs. Turns out Putin is one of those dog people who thinks dogs are people too...

mathanxiety · 13/01/2017 04:44

Mistigri: "Sanders was never really attacked by the right, they were too busy with Clinton."

...and Clinton was busy savaging Sanders herself....

mathanxiety · 13/01/2017 04:49

Plus, it's impossible to have a sensible conversation about Trump in the politics forum, which tends to get spammed to death by the Breitbart cut 'n' paste mob.

Indeed. 'Tis an ugly scene.
And the very existence of the Breitbart mob illustrates why Trump is now a feature of British politics and needs to be discussed.

Mistigri · 13/01/2017 06:17

...and Clinton was busy savaging Sanders herself...
Yes, that's true, but I don't think Clinton's public criticisms of Sanders exceeded what you'd normally see in a closely fought campaign. No doubt she unfairly benefited from the support of the party structure, but overall the Democratic primary campaign was far more respectful than the Republican campaign (though not necessarily fairer).

What I'm saying is that the alt-reich never turned the big guns on Bernie, and consequently he never faced the huge public and media focus on his political past that Clinton did. Bernie's political past would have made it relatively simple for the alt-reich to attack him; whether it would have gained the same traction in the media, who knows. But when you ask the question "Could Bernie have beaten Trump" you also have to ask yourself "Could he have survived the same onslaught by the right?". I don't think there is an easy answer to that question, though I personally think he would have been an easy target and would have lost. I think the only obvious candidate with enough appeal across demographics would have been Biden, but of course we will never know.

mathanxiety · 13/01/2017 07:25

They were respectful through gritted teeth. They hated (and still hate) Sanders. I don't think it would be too inaccurate to suspect they hate him more than Trump.

Kaija · 13/01/2017 07:42

Here, if you can stomach it, is Polly Toynbee's 1988 interview with Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/12/polly-toynbee-1988-interview-donald-trump?CMP=othb-aplnewss_d-2

TheNorthRemembers · 13/01/2017 07:45

OMG @ Sandhill result. Last night I did not link to articles on the Libdem candidate, because they seemed too weird. You know like old-fashioned quirky Libdems. That is huge! Who knew there were 800 libdem-supporters?!
Question Time is just Mob Time.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2017 07:57

Math McChrystal still "always took pains to avoid civilian casualties" whereas Flynn didn't.
There was a choice how the 2 soldiers behaved, how to interpret their orders.
Trump chose the one who doesn't care about civilian casualties. (The one Obama sacked for chaotic managament)
The one who who shares Trump's Putin fandom.

The US administration under Bush and Obama were both too tolerant of collateral damage.
For Putin, mass slaughter is not collateral damage: it is deliberate policy, to break his enemies.

Obama was always regarded in the US as "soft", compared to say Hillary who gloated so horribly about Ghadafi's horrible death.
He tried unsuccessfully to close Gitmo; the Republicans want to keep it. The Republicans wanted to keep waterboarding too.

Trump who says he "loves torture" and suggested killing the families of terrorists as a deliberate policy, not collateral damage.
This is far far worse than previous US administrations
The future looks grim in the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan.... 2 sociopath narcs, Trump and Putin, encouraging each other to ever worse atrocities.

lalalonglegs · 13/01/2017 08:30

Another wow at the LD victory in Sandhill Shock.

missmoon · 13/01/2017 08:48

Amazing result in Sandhill, turnout similar to previous local elections. So what changed? Lab voters switched to LD, and UKIP stayed at home?

ukusatoday · 13/01/2017 09:01

more likely usual byelection phenomena - apathy, bad weather, vote for person not the party, with a bit of labour rejection kick thrown in. Doesnt mean we will be seeing a lib govt anytime soon.

Kaija · 13/01/2017 09:24

Looks like some voters were more apathetic than others.

Kaija · 13/01/2017 09:34

There's a huge strength of unrepresented anti-Brexit feeling which at the moment has nowhere to go.

I wonder what kind of gains the lib dems will need to make before the BBC start inviting them on occasionally in place of a kipper.

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