Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SwedishEdith · 12/01/2017 18:29

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8186328/Russian-spy-case-Liberal-Democrat-MP-helped-second-Russian-girl.html

Arron Banks' wife does have an "interesting" past though. It looks like Mary Beard took him for lunch yesterday after a chat on Twitter. What a Star - Mary of course. AB on BBC QT tonight with Gisela Stuart. Will give that a swerve.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2017 18:31

The renegotiation didn't produce much, because the UK already had so many opt outs that the rest of the EU just weren't prepared to make any more real concessions.
They didn't want the Uk to leave, but they wanted the required changes even less.
In those circumstances, the EU side considered Brexit the least bad option.

The most brilliant negotiator in the world couldn't have changed that final deal by more than a millimetre because the UK and the EU sides had fundamentally different future goals and were separated by a chasm.

SnowmaggedonAgain · 12/01/2017 18:37

Yes,BigChoc. it gave me final notice of the firmity of the EU project. ( I do suspect that the negotiators being insiders were unable to function in their roles effectively.)

TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 19:14

But I thought that it was not the sole objentive of the EU project to make us happy at the expense of everyone else...

TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 19:14

Objective I mean.

SnowmaggedonAgain · 12/01/2017 19:30

Obviously not. But it is a government's job to do the best for its citizens not those of other countries. Sorry but I feel no loyalty to the EU or the Maastricht Treaty.

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 19:33

march in march
www.uniteforeurope.org

SwedishEdith · 12/01/2017 19:35

I know the £1,000 EU worker tax has already been kicked out but I did like this.

Guy Verhofstadt Verified account

‏*@GuyVerhofstadt*

Imagine, just for a moment, what the UK headlines would be, if the EU proposed this for UK nationals? Shocking.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 19:35

Arron Banks. And why this swamp stuff should bother you.

The Far Right and 'The Swamp'

thinkprogress.org/the-white-nationalist-movements-favorite-philosopher-42576bc50666#.mf7a5ow4r
The white nationalist movement’s favorite philosopher

Note the reference:
At one point in the talk he said he believed, “to be liberal and Nazi is the same.”

Remember tweet from Trump a couple of days ago?
Donald J. Trump ‏*@realDonaldTrump*
Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to "leak" into the public. One last shot at me. Are we living in Nazi Germany?

This fella, Dugin has also said that he thinks there should be 'a Nuremberg Trial for Liberalism'.

Then take a long hard look at what Banks and Leave.Eu did with their 'Drain The Swamp' thing when they put the photos of Anna Soubry, Nick Clegg and David Lammy.

Its not the only example. There is quite deliberate use of language going on to re-appropriate things and make them seem 'normal'.

Tell me its not part of the same philosophy. I want you too, as I can't see it any other way.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 19:39

Oh and then look at the wiki for Dugin.

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 12/01/2017 19:45

And on whether Sanders would have won. Too difficult to be sure. People vote differently in actual elections than how they say they'll vote etc. It's what makes the assumption that Ukip would have x number of seats if there was PR. It's a lot easier voting to Ukip (and Leave) if you don't think it'll really happen.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 12/01/2017 19:51

ITV tonight covering the drop in the pound. Food prices expected to rise up to 8% first six months of 2017. Clothes prices up to. Foreign holidays more expensive. Sober viewing.

Mistigri · 12/01/2017 19:53

Sanders was never really attacked by the right, they were too busy with Clinton. If he had been the candidate he would have been targeted too - and Bernie would have been an easy target, because he's been in politics for a long time.

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 19:56

Even the Daily Heil protested at DT's use of the word Nazi in his performance yesterday.
Yes, Red. We call it out. That's what we do.

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 20:10

Does any one know what the state of play is in the Democrat party with regard to future leaders? Bernie's not going to stand again is he?

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 20:16

State of democratic not dissimilar to labour at present. Bernie is doing a good 'Corbyn trying to go after ukip votes' impression from what I can tell.

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 12/01/2017 20:22

Red and Woman - in terms of calling it out, yes we can do that but it has limitations.

It's like that classic psychological example - if I say to you: "don't think of a blue elephant", what are you picturing? The "blue elephant" message still reaches your subconscious.

Trump's strategy is effective.

To counter it, we need a more compelling narrative.

TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 20:23

woman One-man self-destruct button Anthony Weiner will stand given a chance.
But, seriously, maybe Elizabeth Warren. Joe Biden said he would. Mrs Obama said she would not, but who knows. Or someone young we have never heard of.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 20:31

I agree, stripey, and it just isn't there yet. Trouble is, it's not just a narrative that is lacking, it's a strategy. The device of repeating ever more outrageous things until they become normal, while characterising your opponents as enemies of the people, has proved to be very powerful, and there doesn't yet appear to be any very effective counter to it.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2017 20:33

"Nuremberg trials for Liberalism" ConfusedAngry
Nuremberg was not because of hurt feelings
It was because 6 million Jewish civilians were murdered in a cold-blooded attempt to exterminate the Jewish race.

snow Basically, the problem stems from when the Uk first joined (and the vote then was only 60:40 , hardly overwhelming enthusiasm)
The UK joined only because most politicians felt we were at an economic disadvantage, being outside a trade block that our most important neighbours had formed

For other countries, coming together and being part of a European identity was also a strong motivation, whereas most of the UK, at least the older generation, has never felt European.
Some still feel threatened by a major club to which the Uk will no longer belong, which is why they keep predicting / wanting the EU to crash

That's not just being an island: the RoI overwhelmingly want to remain in the EU, 82% (wc) - 86% (mc)
So, ok, something deep in the British English psyche
and divorce on the grounds of incompatibility.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2017 20:38

Merkel’s worries about Trump

It's not Trump's ideology that worries her most:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/donald-trump-angela-merkel-anticipates-frosty-relations-with-u-s-a-1128442.html

It's his character: “his craving to be loved and admired and his fury against all those who refuse to do so”

It’s his wild opinion / mood swings: In August 2015, he said the German chancellor was "probably the greatest leader in the world today."
Then the refugee crisis came and Trump said, "What she's done in Germany is insane. It's insane."

His wish to break the Iran deal (because Obama negotiated it ?)– which would empower Iranian hardliners and create even more war & chaos in the whole region.
More refugees.

His appointments: e.g. His new national Security Advisor, Michael Flynn
“Whereas his boss McChrystal always took pains to avoid civilian losses, Flynn seemed less concerned about killing innocent Afghans”

btw, an example of Putin showing he can be as childishly nasty as Trump (no wonder they get on):
“In 2007, Vladimir Putin took great pleasure in Merkel's angst-ridden face when his Labrador crept up to the dog-shy chancellor's feet”

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 20:49

Just read the Dugin stuff. Russia has a proud history of this sort of type, and the orthodox church is a fellow traveller again. (Domestic violence is being decriminalised in Russia now)
I do agree about calling out semantic displacement, the liberal/nazi thing. When this feminazi expression started I had to educate teen on why that was wholly incorrect, just have to keep explaining. Banks and the ukips benefit hugely from ignorance.
Jewish organisations like The Anne Frank Center for Mutual Respect have demanded an apology from Donald Trump after he compared the US to Nazi Germany yesterday.
I'll add organisations like this to my list of ones to support at this time.

TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 22:23

Why did noone leaked the Trump dossier before the election we wondered with DH? There were so many lies and nutters around.

Swipe left for the next trending thread