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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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Motheroffourdragons · 12/01/2017 13:24

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woman12345 · 12/01/2017 13:24

Kiaja I didn't put that very well. I meant that being bombarded with DT fake and real news, and TM and Brexit can make us feel really impotent,hollowed out, depressed and terrified and campaigning on social media has almost no actual political effect except for educating and perhaps organising: otherwise they'd have been banned. Grin (totalitarian regimes allow computers but kill poets!)

But in answer to 'What are we doing to make ourselves powerless, and what do you think we should be doing to combat this powerlessness? Apart from the obvious forms of political protest, which I suspect are just not cutting it any more.'

Choosing or choosing not to:
get local churches involved in anti racist campaign or cross party discussions;
stand for office locally or nationally;
use Women's equality party for resource for political training;
support local parties;
put EU flag up;
wear a slogan T shirt;
get involved in local and national political parties;
supporting trade unions;
supporting strikers;
choosing a popular local issue and campaigning on it ( like libs do so well);
challenging racism/ sexism/ disables/ agism each time it's seen;
treating co workers and employees with integrity;
being honest with children and young people about what you think; politically and encouraging them to get involved too;
linking up locally nationally and internationally with sympathetic organisations;
writing letters to newspapers;
writing articles;
taking care of self;
volunteering to teach non English speakers English;
supporting women's centres;
learn self defence;
learn passive resistance techniques;
going on the Women's March on Jan 21st;
sending contraceptives and abortion pills to US women's groups;
teaching our sons not to be sexist;
strike;
demonstrate;
learn laws on arrest;
practise for it;
support political prisoners;
write to prisoners and campaign for release;
write a song!
record a song;
write a film script;
make the film!
be kind;
be vigilant.

Any number of these activities, have helped change regimes, and have meant that many of us have been lucky enough to grow up in liberal affluence, because those who went before did the hard work for us.

It is possible to choose to, or not to do any one of the above to make a difference.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 12/01/2017 13:25

Oh I see Lurking and there is me thinking it was do with her background, her experiences growing up, and topped off by an actual two year stint, working closely with the EU in a department for Blair. It was that experience which finally led her to believe we had to leave the EU because of its federalizing nature and a myriad of other issues.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 12/01/2017 13:28

being honest with children and young people about what you think; politically and encouraging them to get involved too

^^ You mean put two sides across in a balanced way and if they want to get involved on the Leave side thats OK with you?
Or do you mean brain wash them?
I am a staunch leaver my DH is a remainer, I gave my DC the flat facts, I have not let them know which way myself or DH voted. At this point in time they don't need to know but they could give you a shallow, but decent enough break down of both sides. I teach dc to question everything and what their views are - will be their views and non of my business.

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 13:33

For sure let 'em choose!! I
Got a tory and anarchist/ agnostic teens at the moment. Proud that one is so right wing really, considering my views!!

Cailleach1 · 12/01/2017 13:35

What flat facts did you give your children Elf? Just out of interest. The full balance.

NotDavidTennant · 12/01/2017 13:41

The fall in EU student applications is just the beginning. May has shown in the past that she's willing to restrict student visas in pursuit of immigration targets. Once freedom of movement goes I expect that not only will fewer EU students want to come here, but many who do want to come won't be allowed to.

If that happens then expect either fees to go up for home students or some universities to get into financial difficulties.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 13:43

Arron Banks is a thug.

On the subject of why UKIP and their backers are given so much airtime by the BBC, some interesting stuff here in James O' Brien's review of Brexit books:

"If references to arsenic and razor blades seem a little excessive, here’s Shipman on how Arron Banks, the UKIP and Leave.EU donor, who somehow manages to combine “anti-elite” rhetoric with the ownership of an actual diamond mine, was conducting himself at the time: “One of Banks’s favourite gambits was to threaten to sue at the drop of a hat”. Fascinatingly, this alleged litigious incontinence was not confined to Remain opponents. Banks was, if anything, even more visceral in his hatred of Leave campaigners whose ideas differed from his own. That famously anti-elitist law firm, Mishcon de Reya (who represented the late Diana, Princess of Wales during her divorce proceedings), thus trousered cheques galore for issuing legal letters, including one alleging involvement in “defamatory” press briefings, on Banks’s fellow Brexiteer Matthew Elliot, the Chief Executive of “Vote Leave” and formerly of the ludicrously misnomered Taxpayer’s Alliance. In the words of his fellow Ukipper Chris Bruni-Lowe (according to Shipman), “Banks’s controversy actually helped him, because he was suing everyone. He’d tell the BBC ‘You’d better put me on.’ And they did”.

The claim, by his close ally, that a prominent Leave campaigner effectively used deep pockets and legal threats to steamroller his way onto screens seems perfectly plausible when set against the backdrop of nuanced contemplations of perceived partiality that the BBC was duty-bound to undertake at every turn. I find it entirely credible that fear of the kind of attention newspapers such as the Daily Mailwould afford any complaint or writ, regardless of its merits, might spook programme-makers sufficiently to influence guest bookings."

www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/brexit-pursued-by-a-fear/

TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 13:44

Elf This is friendly thread, there is no need to shout and attack. We have obviously all worked out that you are a proud leaver. Good for you.
My DS is a staunch Trump-supporter.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 13:45

Restricting students from coming here to study is beyond insane.

lurkinghusband · 12/01/2017 13:52

Restricting students from coming here to study is beyond insane.

Not really. It's a perfectly legitimate way of reducing any surface area where the UK can be compared with other countries and found wanting. (It's worth reminding ourselves an alternative way would be to improve the UK with respect to other countries, but heigh ho).

I suspect May would love to turn the UK into a sort of pre Gorbachev Russia, where everyone inside is told how wonderful it is to live there, and the only people allowed in are ones who will write nice things.

I look forward to post Brexit posters of women with headscarves driving combine harvesters in formation (which is my memory of communist Russia).

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 13:55

I gave my DC the flat facts

Wrong thing to focus on.

I teach dc to question everything and what their views are

As you say, this is the crux of it.

Teach them the skills to be able to determine the qualify and merit of what ever is presented to them either dressed as opinion or fact - by whoever.

Teach them to understand how belief systems are important and interact with knowledge and evidence and how knowledge and evidence can be biased, self selected or otherwise flawed.

Basically teach them to think critically and evaluate rather than give them ANY 'facts'.

I DO think its right to explain why you think it is important to get involved politically regardless of what their views are though, because that's just part of being anti-apathy rather than necessarily encouraging them a particular route.

That said, if DS ever come out with something that might could out the lips of a neo-Nazi, I would definitely have a problem.

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whatwouldrondo · 12/01/2017 14:01

Elf Young people are not sheep /brain washing fodder. What an odd comment. I assume you do not have teenage children, for those of us who have been through that phase with their children the idea that any attempt to brainwash would result in anything but the exact opposite effect is a rather painful joke. Clearly from the vote statistics it is highly likely a lot of young people voted remain whose parents voted Leave.

I bought up my children to be interested and informed about current affairs and to be active when they feel strongly about an issue, just as I was, and the pre referendum debate in the family was across not just two but three generations, from 13 to 84 . So I learnt a lot from my children about the value of the EU to Science and academia and the associated risks of leaving. It was them who introduced me to the Scientists in the EU pressure group, which is in the main a pressure group led and actively supported by young people with the support of their elders. It is one of the few examples where young people have managed to gain a political voice and I am proud that my children are active members. Frankly I would be equally proud of their engagement in the political process, if not their actual vote if they had decided the opposite way if it was for equally good informed reasons, and I certainly would not have had a cat in hell's chance of "brainwashing" them. However given they are proud to regard themselves as global citizens being "third country kids" and knowing many more that was not likely. However very few of their peers having examined the evidence, whatever their parents views, voted for Leave.

At Christmas I was completely unsuccessful in my suggestion that my millennials did not wear their "All I want for Christmas is EU" T shirts to avoid conflict but their Leave voting grandparents with whom I have had many a barney on the subject ignored them except to comment that they were glad to see another generation taking an interest and actively campaigning politically (not true of all their grandchildren, when they asked a cousin who David Cameron was when he was PM, they didn't know, so they have used the power of the older cousins to engage them in political debate ). Fact is that they appreciate the validity of their point of view given the very real problems they are experiencing as a result of Brexit.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 14:05

"Teach them the skills to be able to determine the qualify and merit of what ever is presented to them either dressed as opinion or fact - by whoever. "

Yes, this. More important than ever now.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 14:14

Ciaran Jenkins ‏*@C4Ciaran*
Source tells me UK gov meeting again with Nissan today.

Is Nissan getting inside track on Brexit while public kept in the dark?

Or is Nissan getting nervous?

www.ft.com/content/223af71a-d853-11e6-944b-e7eb37a6aa8e
The problem with English

‘Foreign countries are opaque to mostly monolingual Britons and Americans. Foreigners know us much better than we know them’

Incredibly good piece FT about the Anglosphere and how it makes us vulnerable. Would encourage people to read.

I would also add to it, that there are multiple versions of English too - people who speak English can't necessarily speak to each other and understand what the other is saying. It can be nuisanced culturally in a way that perhaps other languages don't suffer from.

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TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 14:16

Brexit will be good for universities, Oxford’s new Head of Brexit strategy says www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/12/brexit-will-help-uk-universities-recruit-worlds-brightest-students/

Higher fees for fewer foreign students. Not sure where the ceiling is that would deter said foreign students. Our Chinese students already paid £15K a year when I worked in higher education a few years ago.

UK universities with lower entry tariffs see fall in recruitment www.timeshighereducation.com/news/uk-universities-lower-entry-tariffs-see-fall-recruitment
While acceptances to universities with high or medium entry tariffs increased in 2016 to their highest on record, students placed at lower-tariff institutions fell by 6,300 (2.9 per cent) to 214,700, the first fall since 2012. Significantly, medium-tariff institutions increased their acceptances by 5,200 (3.2 per cent) to 171,200, their highest on record. Acceptances to higher-tariff institutions rose by 2.8 per cent to 149,400.

Oxbridge will be fine, but UCAS figures indicate that former Polys with poorer more local intake will struggle.

Mistigri · 12/01/2017 14:17

This idea that there are two sides to every argument drives me fucking insane. While some arguments are at least partly a question of opinion (though not all opinions are equal, of course), others are simply a matter of fact. Example: it's reasonable to debate what we should do about climate change (because this is partly a question of delicate political, economic and technical trade-offs, about which there is a legitimate argument to be had); it's not reasonable to have a debate about whether human-caused climate change has happened and is happening, because this is now a matter of established fact.

prettybird · 12/01/2017 14:35

I don't agree with all of (16 year old) ds' views - he still has a tendency with the clarity f youth to see things in black and white, but he will argue his case very coherently. He's even got me to see some things from a different perspective.

He hates Trump but is convinced that the Democrats would have won with Saunders rather than Clinton as the candidate. He does a lot of political reading from all sorts of different sources (but particularly enjoys Trevor Noah Wink)

Like most Scots, he is pro-EU but wasn't able to vote in the referendum (he was angry about that as it affects his future). He will however be able to vote this May in the Council elections. I know for a fact that our local Tory councillor won't be on his list of preferences.

missmoon · 12/01/2017 14:42

"Brexit will be good for universities, Oxford’s new Head of Brexit strategy says"

Not sure that's the case. Our best undergraduates come from the EU, they get a disproportionate number of the top marks, and go on to be our best PhD students and Postdocs. Higher fees would most definitely deter EU students, the numbers of EU applications (at least at Cambridge) are already down substantially this year (even though there is a commitment by the university for 2017 entry students to honour the £9,000 fee even after Brexit, for the duration of their studies). EU students have lots of other good options, universities in Germany/Netherlands/Scandinavia teaching in English will be the big beneficiaries. We can (and do) already charge non-EU students very high fees, but they tend to be the weaker students, the best Indian, Chinese etc. undergraduate students go to the US (or study in a local university).

squoosh · 12/01/2017 14:43

Most surprised (and heartened) to see this Fox News journalist speak up for CNN and their journo Jim Acosta who was treated so shabbily by Trump at his press conference.

twitter.com/yashar/status/819306390888075265

TuckersBadLuck · 12/01/2017 14:45

"Brexit will be good for universities, Oxford’s new Head of Brexit strategy says"

Oddly enough just yesterday the BBC reported "But this new postholder, Professor Alistair Buchan, saw leaving the EU as threatening to relegate the UK's universities behind their global competition."

I suspect a bit of Telegraph turd-polishing there.

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 15:26

squoosh awesome! Fox! Curiouser and curiouser.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/01/2017 15:36

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TheNorthRemembers · 12/01/2017 15:40

To be fair to Fox News, even Bill O'Reilly called Trump out once in 2015, and O'Reilly is not one to bother about facts or journalism in general. (As Jon Stewart used to say "my friend, Bill O'Reilly is full of sh*t".)www.theblaze.com/news/2015/11/23/bill-oreilly-presses-donald-trump-on-totally-wrong-crime-statistics-tweet-this-bothered-me/

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