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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2017 01:33

The report was compiled by a private security / intelligence firm, founded by at least one former Mi6 officer. Not an official agency.
There are many such firms around the world, who do investigative work for businesses or organisations.
In this case, initially for Trump's rivals in the Republican primaries, then later for a Democratic donor.

D notices, like UK court judgements about anonymity in criminal or civil matters, are pointless once the information is on the Net.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2017 01:55

Would May pressure the BBC if she thinks she might need Trump's help for a good Brexit ?
There is precedent (at least that she might apologise to him in private):

I remember most of us were disgusted back in 1980, that Lord Carrington (Mrs T's Foreign Secretary) aplogised to the Saudi gov when ITV broadcast "Death of a Princess"
It was a drama based on the true story a few years earlier of a teenage Saudi princess and her lover who were publicly executed for adultery, charges instigated by her family.
The apology was because the UK government prioritised UK commercial interests. So, a shameful appeasement of a theocratic dictatorship over a horrible act.

I'm sure May would consider any Trump danger to the world to be much less important than the danger of her party not winning the next GE or 3.

mathanxiety · 12/01/2017 03:47

"You could have a situation where the media is really not the unbiased media we see today," he said, "and they could be a mechanism through which unlawful intelligence is obtained. There are other dangers that could happen with regard to the federal government, that often doesn't happen to media covering cases in the states." [Jeff Sessions]

Here we see Sessions toying with the Senator from Minnesota.

The first part of the first sentence is sarcasm.
The second part of that sentence is Sessions poking fun at the Senator, teasing with hints that the (biased) media are using unlawfully gained leaked documents to smear Trump.

He is clearly saying that the media could present a risk to national security however, and he is putting journos on notice. Not much change therefore from the current state of play.

www.cjr.org/opening_shot/opening_shot_july_august_2014.php This is actually not a sacred pillar of American civil society.

mathanxiety · 12/01/2017 03:57

www.cjr.org/tow_center/donald_trump_media_organization.php
'Donald Trump is a media organization'

A huge insight here imo. This is why the focus on Trump's 'business acumen' with lols aplenty about all his bankruptcies is way off the mark, and why focus on his lack of political experience is also way off the mark. He is not a business leader, and he is not a politician. He is a media phenomenon and agenda setter.

mathanxiety · 12/01/2017 04:26

Wonderful and inspirational as Obama is, he doesn't quite get how insulting it is to be in rust belt town, bringing up your crack addicted kids' children, to be told that marriage equality is an achievement, or that the economy is booming, when you are stranded in zero Mac Job land eternal penury. But I am so glad I lived to see the day he was elected and served 2 terms.

And the other one ( and Bernie) did, that's the difference.

I feel that way too, Woman12345

I had a peek at a book a friend recently bought, written by a grandchild of former Appalachian hill people who moved to Ohio for factory jobs. It's called 'Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis'. I intend to buy it and read it.

www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/the-bad-faith-of-the-white-working-class.html
An article by Vance on religion and paranoia in white working class America.

The 'Left Behind' series mentioned in the article is news to me. Here is a description:
Plot -
Based on a dispensationalist* interpretation of prophecies in the Biblical books of Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel, Left Behind tells the story of the end times (set in the contemporary era), in which true believers in Christ have been "raptured", (taken instantly to heaven) leaving the world shattered and chaotic. As people scramble for answers, an obscure Romanian politician named Nicolae Jetty Carpathia rises to become secretary-general of the United Nations, promising to restore peace and stability to all nations. What most of the world does not realize is that Carpathia is actually the Antichrist foretold of in the Bible. Coming to grips with the truth and becoming born-again Christians, airline pilot Rayford Steele, his daughter Chloe, their pastor Bruce Barnes, and young journalist Cameron "Buck" Williams begin their quest as the Tribulation Force to help save the lost and prepare for the coming Tribulation, in which God will rain down judgment on the world for seven years.

Assessment -
Jerry Falwell said about the first book in the series: "In terms of its impact on Christianity, it's probably greater than that of any other book in modern times, outside the Bible."

Holy crap

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 05:22

The end of times stuff has been playing on my mind a lot lately. It unfortunately fits squarely with fascism. It has long been the worry that the Christian right would take control in the US... Good people do, do bad things because they think it right. People really believe the rapture stuff in the US. People mock but they should not.

I am also troubled by the naming of the source of the report. This breaks from normal journalism ethics practices where the source is sacred. Why did the media name him? Who broke ranks first to do so? What purpose or whose purpose does it benefit? What message does it send? The answer I come back to is that it's to scare other potential leakers and stop more from coming out about Trump. It helps Trump.

If that's true it's very scary indeed. The internet has brought with it new terrors. It's not just individuals either. Thinks like the ability to dump a list of names and addresses of people as belonging in some way to a group which then puts them at risk of either a hostile state or hostile public.

It's the stuff of nightmares. Will it happen?Wikileaks did a data dump of Turkish women last year shortly after the failed coup. There is now open talk of it collecting 'citizen data' in a rather sinister manner with regard to the US based on social media.

Given the talk and other information of the 48% in this country this is troubling.

Things that are happening and not as unique as we might want to believe. The pattern is the same as in other countries in modern times. The pattern is the same as historically just with modern methods.

Trump is not done unless he is actually impeached. He has used what looked like difficult situation to escape and is still managing to turn it to his strategic advantage. So did Erodgan.

Just whose side is May on?

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woman12345 · 12/01/2017 08:23

It has long been the worry that the Christian right would take control in the US..
The paranoia that hippies and the civil rights warriors felt in the 1960s-70s is what we all have now.

Wikileaks did a data dump of Turkish women last year shortly after the failed coup. Shock
I've watched with concern as Amnesty International's good name has been tarnished lately. AI used to be the 'go to' organisation for protecting political freedoms. We used to have a lot of Turkish prisoners to campaign for.

There is now open talk of it collecting 'citizen data' in a rather sinister manner with regard to the US based on social media. I suspect this is the time for the 'post Gutenberg' adjustment to our use of social media, to however the 'new normal' pans out.

Powerlessness is a chosen response. The political powers' use of the internet does that, but it is a chosen response.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 09:03

Powerlessness is a chosen response. The political powers' use of the internet does that, but it is a chosen response.

I don't really understand this. What are we doing to make ourselves powerless, and what do you think we should be doing to combat this powerlessness? Apart from the obvious forms of political protest, which I suspect are just not cutting it any more.

Kaija · 12/01/2017 09:04

(Sorry that first part should have been in bold/quotes.)

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 09:49

It's about holding the line and keeping up pressure. The same as in any previous form of political protest. The trouble is that people are abandoning it. The internet gives us the ability to coordinate and communicate but that also leaves us vulnerable.

I do think one of the biggest problems right now is the fact is so few people understand what is happening and are very innocent in what is creeping in. They don't appreciate and value certain things. Too many people caught in their own bubbles. Which I think is true of both leaver / Remainers here and in a similar fashion in the US. There are a great many Trumper's who are not nutters and believe in American freedoms who just don't see it.

There's a thread running about Trump's I'm on ATM. The overall feeling is that Trump was a disaster at it. He was not. He was brilliant at it and 'won' though as I say I think the dig at the BBC may have been one step too far (though I see how he can use that in the longer term too if he needs too).

This blindness at seeing how he has twisted and turned it around, really is an weakness and I just don't know how that can be over come. I see it retrospectively still most of the time. As long as he controls the agenda he wins. Always a step behind never ahead is crushing any possible accountability and resistance.

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RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 10:05

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/can-donald-trump-really-compromised-agent-russian-influence/?ncid=newsletter-uk
Spectator piece about Trump tape by Paul Wood (of BBC).

Very good piece.

Golden rule of anything political - follow the money. It's always the most important bit.

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Kaija · 12/01/2017 10:11

I think we probably need to look to those who have lived under totalitarian regimes for clues on how to resist at this point.

howabout · 12/01/2017 10:33

If the allegation is that DT could be subject to undue influence because Russia have evidence of sexual misdemeanours, but their evidence, albeit unsubstantiated, is already in the public domain then surely any "influence" they had is substantially diminished?

The other issue is that DT's "moral character" as regards such matters is already discounted. I think whoever leaked the information has done DT a massive favour by getting it all out in the open now - I wouldn't actually be surprised if the CIA and his team were co-ordinating the public spat jointly,

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 10:40

Kaija - already been looking into that to a degree. @sarahkendzior is good follow in us in terms of that. Her website is a bit of a plough but she has written some articles which might help reframe how you see some stuff.
sarahkendzior.com/

If we are going all totalitarian, given Trump's unpopularity think about what would get him more favourable ratings. The one that bothers me here most is the possibility of a 'terrorist attack' shortly after Trump becomes President. Trump is desperate for one that he can pin on outsiders. It's worth pointing out the pattern during Obama's presidency - lone copy cats who are homegrown here.

I also think deliberate stirring of race relations and the police is a high up on the list. The police unions have public ally said they expect to get military level weapons early in Trump's presidency.

Being ahead of the game and being able to accurately spot what's coming next is also a key asset. It starts to make people listen harder.

Anyway back to rather more dull Copeland by-election and the unions campaigning is going to plan. Strike a Selafield is on before end of the month:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nuclear-workers-strike-vote-two-9608138

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RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 11:42

Question Time tonight from Solihull:

David Lidington (Con)
Gisela Stuart (Lab)
Monica Grady (Scientist)
Paul Mason (Writer)
Arron Banks (Leave.Eu)

talk-politics.com/
Let’s Tackle Apathy

British cross party supported campaign to tackle apathy.

www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2017/01/10/what-the-trump-era-will-feel-like-clues-from-populist-regimes-around-the-world/#2dc2d5f261aa
What The Trump Era Will Feel Like: Clues From Populist Regimes Around The World

Note on page two under Curbing the Media
Expect specific anti-Trump or anti-Putin figures to find themselves swathed in personal scandals, from journalists to politicians to entertainers.

Compare with Leave.Eu's decision to talk about 'draining the swamp' with pictures of David Lammy, Anna Soubry and Nick Clegg. This is starting to happen here, right now.

Guess what I am expecting on Questiontime tonight.

Danny Shaw @DannyShawBBC
West Midlands Police confirm Amber Rudd's speech to Conservative Party conference in Birmingham treated as a "hate incident"...

Grab the popcorn folks...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/home-secretary-amber-rudd-hate-crime-incident-speech-foreign-workers-police-tory-party-conference-a7523626.html
Home Secretary Amber Rudd speech on foreign workers treated as 'hate incident' by police

Most serious thing of the day though is THUNDERSNOW! www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/thundersnow-heralds-the-coming-of-the-ninth-demon-admits-met-office-2015011594467
Thundersnow heralds the coming of the Ninth Demon, admits Met Office

Hell I'm British. Is there anything more important than the weather really?

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Cailleach1 · 12/01/2017 12:17

Interesting how they never have 'experts' like Jonathan Portes, Michael Dougan and their ilk who could put a coach and horses through the propaganda of Stuart/Farage, Gove and Arron Banks (one alias). Govie won't debate with Portes. I think it is evident why. These people get to have a soapbox and make a ton of bull up as they go along without being exposed by more knowledgable or straight people.

It is interesting as well how much UKIP get on Daily Politics, Sunday Politics, Question time. Way above people like SNP who hold many more elected seats.

lurkinghusband · 12/01/2017 12:26

Question Time tonight from Solihull:

David Lidington (Con)
Gisela Stuart (Lab)
Monica Grady (Scientist)
Paul Mason (Writer)
Arron Banks (Leave.Eu)

Well, I can tell you straight off Gisela will be a waste of time. She's so far up the leave campaign her voice will probably echo. And she's told her remain supporting constituents that they can fuck off. (I read politicese).

Mysteriously Solihull (lit: "Muddy hill"; Heraldic motto motto "Urbs in Rure" - "The city in the country") has always made a big thing about not being Birmingham (a distinction that means nothing to a Londoner). But their voting reveals their Brummie roots.

A total of 121,950 people from the borough voted in the referendum, with 53,466 opting for remain and 68,484 voting leave.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 12:28

Btw worth pointing out, I have a lot of conflicting feelings over the Amber Rudd thing. Whilst I think it effectively was hate speech, dealing with it in this way is totally counter productive and runs the risk of a serious backlash.

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lurkinghusband · 12/01/2017 12:30

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38597714

Police treat home secretary speech as 'hate incident'

(the article then goes on to basically contradict the headline, claimiung "no offence had been committed. Taken, yes. But not committed).

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 12/01/2017 12:40

Well, I can tell you straight off Gisela will be a waste of time. She's so far up the leave campaign her voice will probably echo

Why is that She is German Immigrant, I wonder why she is a Leave campaigner Xmas Confused

woman12345 · 12/01/2017 12:52

I wrote to Anna Soubry offering support against threats and got a nice email back. Will email David Lammy and Nick Clegg.

SemiPermanent · 12/01/2017 12:57

Watching the professor who reported Amber Rudd for hate speech on Daily Politics.

He's an arse.
He has no actual justification or back up for his complaint.
He couldn't cite a single thing that was actually said to back up his reporting it as a crime.
Would have thought an esteemed academic would be more up on references & evidence.

It's recorded as a 'hate incident' in line with rules which say all official complaints of 'hate' must be recorded.
So, because he was offended by it & reported it, it had to be recorded even though no crime was committed.

TuckersBadLuck · 12/01/2017 13:01

TheMartians "why a levy for EU workers but not nonEU workers???"

This issue seems to have been badly reported. The levy has been reported as a possibility for EU skilled workers, followed by a suggestion that it may also be expanded to non-EU skilled workers.

The actual situation is that the £1,000 levy (£364 in some cases) will already be applied to non-EU skilled workers from April this year - it's called the 'Immigration Skills Charge'. The suggestion was that they would also seek to apply the charge to EU skilled workers after Brexit.

If EU skilled workers are going to be allowed access to the UK to work after Brexit then I don't see any reason why they would be treated differently than other skilled workers on a visa.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2017 13:02

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-crackdown-foreign-students-britain-2-billion_uk_587756dce4b033e31dab98dc?
Brexit Crackdown On Foreign Students Could Cost Britain £2 Billion A Year, Report Reveals

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lurkinghusband · 12/01/2017 13:21

Well, I can tell you straight off Gisela will be a waste of time. She's so far up the leave campaign her voice will probably echo

Why is that She is German Immigrant, I wonder why she is a Leave campaigner

Germany was probably glad to get rid of her.

Despite campaigning very noisily for leave (not quite so noisy now) she then had the lack of intelligence to appear surprised when the possibility of EU immigrants being expelled arose.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/leave-campaigner-gisela-stuart-accused-of-hypocrisy-over-eu-citizens-rights

Either hypocrisy, or she's just a bit dim ? Either way, I don't think she appreciated me writing to her, citing the above, suggesting she should be more careful what she votes for. Götterdämmerung and all that ...

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