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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
merrymouse · 20/12/2016 21:22

Of course Aaron still has to explain how he has inside information the attacker who is apparently still on the loose.

Brewdolf · 20/12/2016 22:10

merry Grin
why let a little thing like the facts get in the way?

lurkinghusband · 20/12/2016 22:10

Can you imagine if May led a move of government out of London?

I am vaguely reminded that the Roman Empire had to be split in two to remain governable ...

Where would a UK Constantinople be Hmm Manchester ?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 22:36

So is it ok now to say that Farage might as well have shot Jo Cox himself ?
And it's not as if Merkel and the Islamic terrorists remotely share any beliefs

TheNorthRemembers · 21/12/2016 09:08

Grin at M&S and S&M

Motheroffourdragons · 21/12/2016 09:24

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Lico · 21/12/2016 09:39

Red: yes, there will be plenty of legal challenge. Indeed new regulations for EU nationals were brought in in 2015 and are being applied retrospectively even for those who have lived in the UK for decades. The issue has already talked about in the House of Lords last week I think.
www.freemovement.org.uk/are-the-latest-nationality-regulations-lawful-in-requiring-permanent-residence-cards-for-eu-citizens/

Not sure why this Farage is getting so much media coverage.

Lico · 21/12/2016 09:57

Gossip: Grin
A while ago, as I was taking the dog for a walk, a person who used to work for the Foreign Office told me that Boris Johnson was blackmailed into stepping down when pitching for the Prime Minister's post. The blackmailer was Murdoch who threatened to run a campaign regarding Marina's shagging in Spur Street, Waterloo..
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/public-indecency-at-waterloo-station-false-accusations-of-sexual-assault-and-brexit/amp/?client=safari

Purely gossip but no smoke without fire Blush

howabout · 21/12/2016 10:10

Mother I agree about the SNP's motivations in excluding the diaspora. I would go further and accuse them of attempting to dilute the impact of born and bred resident Scots by extending the franchise to short-term residency in Indyref1. Given the terms of Indyref1 were very much couched by them in terms of Scotland within the EU but independent of the UK there would have been many non-Scottish (and also a fair few Scots) who prioritised the EU over the UK, because they saw the UK as a subsidiary entity to the overarching EU. There is also widespread misunderstanding of Holyrood - it is not the Scottish Government.

Re Brexit I am also unconvinced on a differentiated settlement. The SNP proposal yesterday got a very mixed lukewarm reception in Scotland yesterday. However I am moving towards being in favour of a Federal settlement within the UK and I think there may be scope for differentiated external relationships within that. To an extent this already happens because of the differing impacts of devolved policies on non-UK migrants.

lurkinghusband · 21/12/2016 10:50

EU challenging UK law ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/21/eu_judgment/

The legality of the UK's Investigatory Powers Act has been called into question by a landmark EU legal ruling this morning, which has restated that access to retained data must only be given in cases of serious crime.

The landmark judgment [PDF] was handed down by the European Union's Court of Justice, setting a new precedent for EU member states' data retention regimes, stating that access to such data must be restricted to the purpose of preventing and detecting serious crime.

(contd)

of course, post A50, the UK can cock a snook at any countries laws it wants to - that's what taking back control means. But I just hope there is no surprise if no one wants to do business with us.

There is a real possibility that in order to trade with the EU, the UK will end up having to give EU citizens better data privacy than UK citizens.

Have we all moved places yet ?

www.alice-in-wonderland.net/resources/chapters-script/alices-adventures-in-wonderland/chapter-7/

BigChocFrenzy · 21/12/2016 11:18

The future ....

India overtakes UK GDP, 5th / 6th largest economy:

"Owing to Britain's recent Brexit-related problems and thanks to India's rapid economic growth,
India has managed to overtake its erstwhile colonial master UK in terms of the size of the economy

  • the first time after nearly 150 years."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/for-the-first-time-in-nearly-150-years-indias-economy-surpasses-that-of-united-kingdom/articleshow/56064690.cms

"this gap is expected to widen as India grows at 6 to 8 per cent p.a. compared to UK's growth of 1 to 2 per cent p.a. until 2020, and likely beyond"

My Indian chums have been seriously gloating chuffed about this and Brexit generally:
maybe optimistically, they think it's their opportunity to be top dog in the relationship, even get some payback

lalalonglegs · 21/12/2016 11:23

lurking - did you not notice who took the anti-Snoopers' Charter case to the ECJ? One David Davis while he was still a backbencher... awkward...

BigChocFrenzy · 21/12/2016 11:26

Trump Tapes ?

He allegedly kept spewing the N-word around during his Apprentice shows.
Also calling his own son a "retard"
I hope the tapes surface, so the US public can decide if they give a damn (probably thsoe who elected him don't)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/20/donald-trump-apprentice-outtakes-tape-tom-arnold

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2016 11:55

Will the Supreme Court decision have bearing on this?

I wouldn't rule it out.

Meanwhile David Davis seems to have scored a victory against the government at the ECJ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38390150
EU data retention ruling goes against UK government

^The UK government says it is "disappointed" after the European Court of Justice said the "indiscriminate" collection of data was against EU law.
EU judges said communications data could only be retained if it was used to fight serious crime.^

Its verdict came after a legal challenge to the UK government's surveillance legislation.

The challenge was initially championed by Brexit Secretary David Davis, who was then a backbench Conservative MP.

The Lib Dems said the ruling proved the government had "overstepped the mark" with its Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, branded the "snoopers' charter" by critics, which requires communications companies to retain data for 12 months.

The ECJ has ruled that a "general and indiscriminate retention" of data is against EU law and can only be done under certain conditions and "solely for the purpose of fighting serious crime".

Its ruling confirms a preliminary verdict in July. The case now returns to the UK Court of Appeal, which had referred the case to the ECJ for clarification.

Mr Davis, who had long campaigned on civil liberties issues, left the case after Theresa May appointed him to her cabinet in July.

Re: Farage and his comments about Brendan Cox and Hope Not Hate, I'm going to keep banging on about this and remind everyone to apply it to what he's said:

Elliott Lusztig @ezlusztig
1. Hannah Arendt in her book The Origin of Totalitarianism provides a helpful guide for interpreting the language of fascists
2. She noted how decent liberals of 1930s Germany would "fact check" the Nazis' bizarre claims about Jews like they were meant to be factual
3. What they failed to understand, Arendt suggests, is that the Nazi Jew hating was not a statement of fact but a declaration of intent
4. So when someone would blame the Jews for Germany's defeat in WW1, naïve people would counter by saying there's no evidence of that
5. What the Nazis were doing was not describing what was true, but what would have to be true to justify what they planned to do next.
6. Did 3 million "illegals" cast votes in this election? Clearly not. But fact checking is just a way of playing along with their game.
7. What Trump is saying is not that 3 million illegals voted. What he's saying is: "I'm going to steal the voting rights of millions of Americans".

Farage does not regard himself as an extremist. He wants to move the centre ground to his point of view and to start a 'crack down' on what he sees as a threat to the UK. Yes this means anyone who is not Christian. What does he need to be true to achieve this? Simple characterise any opposition to this as a threat to the centre ground and start vilifying liberals as being the allies of terrorists. We are going to see a lot more of this - and not just from Farage or even his buddies in the States.

Think about how that ECJ ruling is going to fit into what Farage likes...

OP posts:
Peregrina · 21/12/2016 12:05

Meanwhile David Davis seems to have scored a victory against the government at the ECJ...

I bet he's sorely wishing he could remove his name from the original filing.
Farage - Christian?

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2016 13:20

I'm not saying he is. I'm saying that's the only faith acceptable to him. If only as a means of controlling people...

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TheNorthRemembers · 21/12/2016 13:51

By-election in Cumbria. If Corbynites continuously threaten MPs with deselection, or whatever it is called, they have nothing to lose. Better off finding a better paying job in the private sector while they can. [sigh]

Unicornsarelovely · 21/12/2016 14:09

Jamie Reed's comments in the Guardian sound as though being an MP at the moment is very miserable with nothing happening except Brexit.

The seat was a Lab/Con/UKIP three way marginal with a strong leave vote. I don't think either TM or JC will be sleeping easily about this one. Would a loss for LAB give more fuel to JC's critics for the new year? or just brushed under the carpet?

Peregrina · 21/12/2016 14:20

By-election in Copeland, Cumbria. I have just looked it up and it's a seat where the Tories have always since the 80s come second to Labour. So it could be a commentary on both Corbyn and May's performance. It will also be interesting to see whether UKIP are the threat that we are led to believe. The managed an extremely poor second in Sleaford, which ought to have been fertile territory for them. I wonder just how quickly they will move to have the election?

BTW, I think council by-elections are due to lessen during the early part of next year. When there is an election due in May 2017 any seat becoming vacant will be left until then. So no more council by elections in Wales for example.

merrymouse · 21/12/2016 14:22

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/12/ankara-berlin-trump-obama/511202/

This is about Trump framing terrorism as Christian against Muslim, and I think you could apply the same to Farage and Banks.

However, I don't think any of them are particularly Christian or know much about the history of religious conflict.

merrymouse · 21/12/2016 14:38

I can't see a good reason for not releasing the Trump Tapes if they exist. I know there was a non-disclosure agreement, but I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to compensate any financial loss. At this point I think it's a case of putting up or shutting up.

TheNorthRemembers · 21/12/2016 14:55

In a closed-door meeting with German lawmakers, Merkel said some industries might press for such accords with the U.K. government and that political leaders should oppose them, according to two people who attended. In particular, allowing U.K. banks to do business in the EU in return for Britain granting market access to European carmakers is a non-starter, Merkel was quoted as saying by the people, who asked not to be identified because the meeting was private.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-21/merkel-said-to-close-off-banks-for-cars-brexit-deal-before-talks

Peregrina · 21/12/2016 14:58

The Guardian is referring to Copeland as a potential 3-way fight. The last results were Lab:16,750, Cons:14, 186 and UKIP: 6148 - which personally I would see as very much a two horse race. But we have to have the media talking up UKIP for all they are worth, it seems.

The timing of the election will be crucial, I think. The writ for a by-election has to be moved within 3 months - mid-March at the latest? Hmm, tricky. Probably best to move it in January and call the election for early Feb.

lurkinghusband · 21/12/2016 15:19

Meanwhile David Davis seems to have scored a victory against the government at the ECJ...

I bet he's sorely wishing he could remove his name from the original filing.

There was an eerily prescient Yes Minister where the hapless Jim Hacker - who supported a petition against data surveillance in opposition is forced to accept it when he becomes me Minister responsible ...

www.yes-minister.com/ymseas2a.htm#YM 2.3

[Talking about the very successful petition on electronic surveillance]
Bernard Woolley: "Shall I file it?"

Jim Hacker: "File it? Shred it!"

Bernard Woolley: "Shred it??"

Jim Hacker: "Nobody must ever be able to find it again."

Bernard Woolley: "I'll file it, Minister"