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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Lico · 19/12/2016 22:21

Darth, BigChoc: yes-very futile.
Make us realise how fragile life is. It can happen anywhere to any of us.

MangoMoon · 19/12/2016 23:16

Awful news.
Agree with previous sentiments Sad

Peregrina · 19/12/2016 23:21

Scary, isn't it? I know that area of Berlin well. It makes you realise how fragile Peace can be, and how it's worth working for.

How do you deal with terrorism though?

OlennasWimple · 19/12/2016 23:47

Lico - UK immigration rules are law, though. Being in the country without complying with the immigration rules = breaking the law, including when exercising treaty rights.

OlennasWimple · 19/12/2016 23:48

Peregrina - I wish we were putting all the energy and resources being sucked into Brexit into dealing the root causes - and the symptoms - of terrorism instead...

mathanxiety · 20/12/2016 06:39

No - Russia will not retaliate against turkey in any way. Turkey and Russia have close ties and a common interest in halting the threat of ISIS. Russia will probably be given carte blanche to send agents to Turkey to assassinate a good few people on its 'lump of coal' list.

mathanxiety · 20/12/2016 06:40

Keep on autocorrecting Turkey to turkey, sorry..

Mistigri · 20/12/2016 06:42

Lico - presumably that requirement stems from the criteria to be eligible to exercise treaty rights of free movement? In practice, many many EU nationals have been in the UK technically in breach - and therefore with no legal status.

I think there is a reading comprehension issue here Olenna, as well as some surprising ignorance of current EU law.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Lico - who has legally been in the country for several decades and has worked for much of that time - has (a) been exercising her treaty rights and (b) has a right to permanent residence under current EU rules.

What she does not have is a right to a piece of paper confirming her permanent residency rights because this is intended primarily for non-EU nationals. They are trying to make EU/EEA nationals jump through hoops intended for non-EU immigrants (hoops that are already grossly unfair for this group).

The big legal question is what happens to Lico's "acquired rights" once the UK leaves the EU, because if non-EU rules are retrospectively applied to EU citizens who have legally been in the UK for decades then we have a major problem - and so do you. You'll be getting back about 90% of British expats living in Spain and Portugal and probably (personal estimate) at least 50% of those in France.

Mistigri · 20/12/2016 06:47

green voters were even stronger in their support for remain than lib dem voters -75% to lib dems' 70%.

There is no 100% correspondence between party allegience and referendum vote. Even some kippers voted remain Shock!

Mistigri · 20/12/2016 06:48

Lico - UK immigration rules are law, though. Being in the country without complying with the immigration rules = breaking the law, including when exercising treaty rights.

I can't get over this. What do you think a treaty is?

SilentBatperson · 20/12/2016 07:31

Yeah I hope that was a joke. If a person is in the UK exercising their Treaty rights, by definition they can't be breaking the law. They are complying with immigration rules. What do you think the 2006 EEA Regs are?!

This includes an EEA national who acquired permanent residence and then stopped working, without getting the piece of paper that confirmed their PR. Because that's all the piece of paper does, confirms you have rights that you acquire automatically by doing certain things.

The EEA nationals who actually are here illegally are those who aren't exercising Treaty rights (either themselves or by being a dependant of an EEA national) and didn't acquire permanent residence before they stopped. Which as it happens, includes quite a lot of people who are married to and parents of British citizens.

DorothyL · 20/12/2016 07:45

That's me SilentBat - married to a Brit, three British children, here since 1998. Spent most of that time looking after children without health insurance, because I had no idea.

Therefore have not got a five year period that would count towards aquiring a permanent residency card.

People I tell are always flabberghasted - "but your dh is British! Your children are British"

Question is what happens to someone like me?

DorothyL · 20/12/2016 07:47

Am I here illegally though, as in - by rights I should leave?

SilentBatperson · 20/12/2016 07:57

Well if you've not private insurance at any point and couldn't therefore be considered self sufficient, possibly you've been residing illegally yes. But we're still in the EU and you still have your EEA rights, so you could just start exercising them. That's what I'd do rather than leave. Could you find work? Doesn't have to be anything much. Do you have a skill you could use to be self-employed? Or carry on as you are, presumably supported by your spouse, and get private insurance?

Not that I can give any assurance, but I don't think there's any way in hell someone like you would be expected to leave. You aren't alone in not realising either, most people don't! Which includes, to my certain knowledge, at least one Brit married to an EU SAHP who I don't believe has permanent residence, who still voted Leave.

howabout · 20/12/2016 08:31

I think there may be another misunderstanding going on re Treaty Rights. UK Nationals are by definition EEA Nationals and so I cannot see why a spouse / dependent of a British National would have fewer rights than a spouse of a non-UK EEA National? I am no expert on immigration law but having dealt with it on a personal level I would advise staying away from the lawyers with pound signs in their eyes atm.

howabout · 20/12/2016 08:38

On the Greens, being "absolutely unequivocal" is not really in their nature. My DH is a Southern Green Lexiter who strongly objects to Scottish Nationalism. This leaves him somewhat disenfranchised as we live in Scotland.

This is the Green Brexit case as articulated by Baroness Jenny Jones, ex London Assembly member and Mayoral candidate.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/eu-reform-green-brexit

howabout · 20/12/2016 08:44

I am watching with interest to see what Nicola Sturgeon's Brexit proposals look like today. I think there is quite a strong case for powers being repatriated from the UK being devolved to Scotland, but as always the devil will be in the detail.

SilentBatperson · 20/12/2016 08:48

British nationals who aren't exercising Treaty rights don't have access to those rights howabout. Specifically because our government doesn't wish to allow people to bring in non-EEA treaty rights exercising spouses unless they earn a certain amount. The exception is if you're on the Surinder Singh route, which few are. You can't even claim to be exercising Treaty rights if you're a dual British and EEA national any more.

This misunderstanding on your part is an excellent example of why people should use lawyers to protect their rights. Even if they do have the temerity to charge. Having dealt with it on a personal level clearly doesn't suffice...

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 08:54

howabout I am no expert on immigration law No neither am I but I do know enough from the experience of others to know that it is labyrinthian and full of pitfalls and one wrong move can condemn you to deportation. Given that I know of many British nationals condemned to exile for the crime of falling in love with someone from another country I would certainly be employing a lawyer in licos case. One of the big issues in the Leave arguments is that few realise just how unfit for purpose our immigration controls are, both in terms of the interests of the economy, and of British nationals. All very well saying that we want back control but control involves the deterrent of a multi step bureaucratic process with frightening paperwork that requires expensive lawyers and /or community support to negotiate successfully. It is not just that even the simplest right to remain requires you to fill out 90 pages but that if you get even one thing slightly wrong, a misspelling, a date wrongly put down, then you are back to square one with a rejection on your record. The only thing it "controls" is the possibility of anyone "foreign", however talented, however much loved, from coming here at all.

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 08:58

Speaking the truth as defined by Scientific method could earn you death threats in Trump's America www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-what-the-coming-attack-on-climate-science-could-look-like/2016/12/16/e015cc24-bd8c-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.3bd556127a85

Kaija · 20/12/2016 09:09

Really appalled to hear of your situation, lico. There must be thousands in the same position. Do you think a group could be formed to work together on this?

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 09:25

The headlines in the right wing press about the tragedy in Berlin this morning are appalling. "Merkels dead"? How is someone who comes into a country under a false name representative of anything other than the inherent evil in all humanity? Sorry but feeling very Miss Angry this morning, this is simply not OK. I am off to donate to Stop Funding Hate.

TheNorthRemembers · 20/12/2016 09:41

What happened to British values like decency?! Farage is classy as well: This is Merkel's legacy.

It was probably posted before, but to cheer us all up: Nick Brown MP's Christmas card.

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?
Lico · 20/12/2016 09:46

Mistigri, what would, Silent:
Yes, thank you for explaining clearly. Many people are very quick at invoking 'breaking the law' without knowing what they are talking about. Yes, this is why I am using a lawyer. The Home Office is notorious for creating its own requirements (some of which are not laws)

Howabout: I was thinking like you for weeks and refused to believe it until it was confirmed by incredible amount of reading and two different sets of lawyers..

Kakja: yes there is. One French guy from Bristol set it up:
us13.campaign-archive1.com/?u=9c20dec826b5110f3a7f5e9bc&id=ae892d202d&e=%5BUNIQID%5D