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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Brewdolf · 20/12/2016 10:00

Love that north

whatwould I just don't understand the merkels dead thing. I refuse to read the tabloids in order to try to understand it as I'll get angry at the inflammatory nature of their reporting! Do they mean politically or did someone think she was there? Or am I going to have to suck this up and read a tabloid? Blush

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2016 10:03

Re: Andy Burnham - pragmatist or a man who doesn't argue with you too much? (thus explaining why he managed to stay in the shadow cabinet until Oct. I believe he was longest surviving MP in the Labour cabinet having served under Brown, Miliband and Corbyn). Does he suffer from the same lack of leadership ability to Corbyn?

Lico, I'm sure that your legal status will become a legal challenge to the government in time. As others say there will be thousands in your position. The government do not want to tackle it though as you are the bargaining chip. Plenty of Brits abroad have their own not dissimilar issues.

mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/understanding-free-trade.html
Blog on the relationship between trade and sovereignty.

Its very good. Its essence is that you can not have free trade and keep all your sovereignty.

It references this Lords report:
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/72/7212.htm#_idTextAnchor138 which states:

43.The notion that a country can have complete regulatory sovereignty while engaging in comprehensive free trade with partners is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of free trade. Modern FTAs involve extensive regulatory harmonisation in order to eliminate non-tariff barriers, and surveillance and dispute resolution arrangements to monitor and enforce implementation. The liberalisation of trade thus requires states to agree to limit the exercise of their sovereignty. The four frameworks considered in this report all require different trade-offs between market access and the exercise of sovereignty. As a general rule, the deeper the trade relationship, the greater the loss of sovereignty.

Merkel is politically dead following another terrorist attack is the implication I guess.

OP posts:
lurkinghusband · 20/12/2016 10:17

Interesting comment I just read on YouGov ...

I've decided, against the wishes of 3/4 of my household, to leave the RAC. I plan to leave the RAC and arrange thousands of individual maintenance agreements with all the garages in the UK. I'm blindly pushing on with this even though all independent garages have explicitly told me this is not a deal they offer and even if it were, it'd be unfeasibly impractical and expensive. The car's broken down, we're stranded, I'm broke but my family need to stop being a bunch of RACmoaners.

lurkinghusband · 20/12/2016 10:23

There is no 100% correspondence between party allegience and referendum vote. Even some kippers voted remain shock!

When P.J. O'Rourke visited Ireland ( "Holidays in Hell" ) he noted that there were protestant IRA members, and Catholic unionists.

(as an aside, it's often very illuminating to read what foreigners write about your country. They often see things we have been conditioned not to. Spalding Gray said the same thing about British writers who wrote about the US in Vietnam and Cambodia)

TheNorthRemembers · 20/12/2016 10:27

That is a good one, lurkinghusband

Brewdolf I have not read it, but based on DM my MIL thinks Merkel is politically finished. And they are classy.

lurkinghusband · 20/12/2016 10:33

I can't find it immediately, but there was an article a while back noting that some forms of Brexit/immigration control were simply not possible. The UK doesn't have the necessary details on UK citizens/EU citizens to be able to distinguish between the various categories.

It may piss off those that wanted a certain outcome but it might simply be impossible to implement because we don't have the data.

TuckersBadLuck · 20/12/2016 10:36

Merkel is politically dead following another terrorist attack is the implication I guess.

I read it as 'they are Merkel's dead' - i.e. the deaths are her responsibility.

(Not my thoughts)

HesterThrale · 20/12/2016 10:46

If you read The Sun article, (I did so you don't have to, but felt sick while doing it), I think there are both connotations: They are her responsibility for letting in so many refugees/ migrants, but also this is the final nail in her coffin ahead of her 4th election bid next year. (Not my thoughts.)

Also they say Germany is 'facing the biggest rise in right wing support since the 1930s.'

Look where that led.

howabout · 20/12/2016 10:58

DH and I were discussing the nature of the Lib / Dems yesterday and the trade off between Liberal core values of individual freedoms and collective responsibility. It is difficult to look at Liberal Party history without considering the impact of the transfer of influence to the Labour Party and then the resurgence of the Liberal Party post the SDP.

In the context of how single issue parties are in fact on Brexit it is worth noting Lord Owen's pro Brexit stance.

BlueEyeshadow · 20/12/2016 11:08

Yes, the "Merkel's dead" thing is implying that the deaths are her fault. I think it's quoting one of the nastier right wing German politicians.

HesterThrale · 20/12/2016 11:13

Berlin.
Nigel Farage tweeted that 'events like these will be Merkel's legacy'.
Brendan Cox responded: 'blaming politicians for the actions of extremists? That's a slippery slope Nigel.'

NF at this point should have started thinking about the subtle implications of the response, but no. He ploughed on, continuing to insult and implicate Cox without evidence.

I have no words. NF is an unspeakable .

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-accused-using-berlin-9488817.amp?client=safari

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 11:15

Sorry, irresponsible neglect of the apostrophe, it read "Merkel's dead", inferring it was her responsibility.

Of course Farage has jumped on the bandwagon and when challenged by Jo Cox's widower that blaming politician's for an extremist act was a slippery slope, the charmer apparently said "He said: "Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means."

"I am sorry Mr Cox but it is time that people started to take responsibility for what has happened."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/nigel-farage-row-jo-cox-widower-blaming-angela-mekel-berlin

Undemocratic would not by any chance refer to the fact that Hope not Hate aims to "investigate, expose and campaign against the activities of the far right and other promoters of hate in Britain and Internationally." Hmm

HesterThrale · 20/12/2016 11:21

Off topic, but interesting WEF report out saying EU support across the continent is galvanised since Brexit:

www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/support-for-european-union-has-grown-since-brexit

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 11:40

The Guardian live blog is covering the fall out. Hope not Hate are talking to their lawyers. UKIP run a site called Nope not Hope (never a truer label, they are pretty negative and hopeless) which claims Hope not Hate are responsible for harassment of Kippers. I am sure we all appreciate that the far left can behave as badly as the far right but it is particularly rich that they moan that Hope not Hate is well funded by Trade Unions, as opposed to rich billionaires.......

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 11:59

The opinion of rightwing UK tabloids about "Merkel's deaths" sounds part of their strange hope / campaign for EU countries to turn to the far right.

Picture is opinion poll from 16 December.

The AfD seem about like UKIP level at the moment, but Germany's PR system means coalitions all the time and noone wants to ally with them.

So, people here say they expect the usual CDU/CSU (main partner) to form a coalition with SPD, maybe also FDP (liberals) and / or Greens.
What is possible is that Merkel hands over soon to a new young party leader and retires.

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?
BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 12:10

So Farage is lecturing Jo Cox's widower about political violence Hmm

If Farage blames Merkel for the Berlin deaths, should we refer to "Farage's dead" - Jo Cox, Polish victims ?
Should we refer to "Farage's racial attacks" for the upsurge in hate attacks after the referendum ?

HesterThrale · 20/12/2016 12:15

Good question Bigchoc.

That is what, for me, jumped out from Brendan Cox's response to NF.

Mistigri · 20/12/2016 12:18

Sounds to me like people need to start standing up and explicitly blaming Farage for Jo Cox's murder as well as death threats to the likes of Gina Miller and Anna Soubry.

Because if he wants to argue that Brendan Cox is at fault here, then we should be clear that the flip side of this argument is that Farage himself has been caught holding a knife dripping with blood.

Brewdolf · 20/12/2016 12:28

whatwould thank you. For explaining it to me simply and for not making me read a tabloid! And everyone else. Grin

mistri don't forget Farage's statement that 'we won this without a single shot being fired'. Tbf he can't see what his side do to incite hate because I'm sure he think those in the crossfire deserve it. Unless it's directed at him. Twat

howabout · 20/12/2016 12:51

Don't often agree with the Lib Dems but on the NS proposals for Scotland's UK / EU negotiating position I absolutely do.

per the BBC: The Liberal Democrats said the report was an "expensive exercise in Christmas window dressing as the only option the first minister really wants to succeed is Scottish independence."

One might say an exercise in having your Christmas cake, eating it and then wrapping it up in a bow for next time. Grin

HesterThrale · 20/12/2016 13:27

David Lammy has tweeted to NF after his comments to Cox that 'a period of silence on your part would be welcome'.

A very long one please.

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 13:31

How is this for post truth

Farage telling Fox News that Obama is the most unpopular President in the UK twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/810893977918394369

Actual survey results showing approval ratings versus Dubya with an almost 80% improvement

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?
Mistigri · 20/12/2016 14:03

I'm a fan of David Lammy (and an ex constituent so if I ever get my vote back he will be my MP). If only there were more Labour MPs like him, people like me might not have felt compelled to defect.

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 14:26

Guy Verhofstadt on a European response to terrorism. Let's hope we are part of it.....

My thoughts go to the victims of the #BerlinAttack. The German Chancellor is absolutely right, these terrorists must pay for their actions. This is an attack against Germany and against our European values. We have to learn from this: Attack after attack it becomes clear that the best way to protect ourselves is by working closer together in Europe. Foremost by creating capacities on the European level so that we can really manage our common borders and we can better exchange crucial information on potential terrorists. A European Intelligence and Investigation Agency and a European Border and Coast Guard with full capabilities are key to that. Europe is the way to make the life of our citizens safer.

www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/photos/a.100029970015.120344.99985820015/10155260478165016/?type=3&theater

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 15:19

I understand why Scottish Nationalists want to Leave the UK, like English Nationalists chose to Leave the EU:

Over the last 40 years, Scotland has a hell of a lot less power at Westminster than the UK has had in the EU:
The UK has lost only 2% of votes in the EU, whereas Scotland is continually dictated to by governments elected by English voters.

However, imo, the UK should become a federation, with Devo-Max for Scotland; Independence looks at least as risky as Brexit.

Surprising that Nicola Sturgeon has been the only major politician reacting intelligently & calmly - in stark contrast to the political vacuum & sheer farce at Westminster.

What I really admired was how she stood firm against racism and stated so clearly that immigrants were valued in Scotland:

"Whether we have lived here for generations, or are new Scots from Europe, India, Pakistan, Africa and countries across the globe we are all of this and more. We are so much stronger for the diversity that shapes us. We are one Scotland. We are simply home to all those who have chosen to live here."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/watch-nicola-sturgeons-powerful-rebuttal-anti-immigration-rhetoric

Gotta admire that, even if I disagree with her on some other issues.