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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

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hotmail124 · 20/12/2016 15:23

'What I really admired was how she stood firm against racism and stated so clearly that immigrants were valued in Scotland'
unless you're English Grin

lurkinghusband · 20/12/2016 15:47

However, imo, the UK should become a federation

The problem with a federation, is it is based on an assumption that each constituent is equal. As we are discovering (and indeed,as most of the "U"Ks history demonstrates) that is not the case. England - with it's c. 43,000,000 has repeatedly pissed all over Scotland and Ireland (and Wales to the extent that Wales lost it's monarch).

The US has devised some mechanisms to avoid the centre-of-gravity effect (all states returning just 2 senators regardless of population), but even there, there is a sense that the smaller states are either tails-wagging-the-dog, or just plain ignored.

Perhaps English speaking democracies have arrived at a similar crossroads despite travelling separately for 2 centuries ?

howabout · 20/12/2016 16:02

Bigchoc I agree that Devomax and a Federal set up is probably the best solution for Scotland. I disagree with the analysis of why that is the case.

Prior to devolution Scotland had a disproportionately large voice at Westminster. Even with the decimation of the Tory vote in Scotland Thatcher and Major made room for Scottish voices like Malcolm Rifkind and Michael Forsyth. The last 2 Labour PMs were Scottish as were the last 2 Labour Chancellors. Even Project Brexit has Liam Fox and Michael Gove on board.

The 50 SNP MPs at Westminster are proving to be a very coherent block and often look more like the Opposition Party than the shambolic PLP.

The process of Devolution has made the current set up unstable and unworkable. The Smith Commission powers are an incoherent compromise with Holyrood seeming to have a lot of power only for its effective impact to be fettered by Westminster overlap. OTOH EVEL seeks to exclude Scottish constituency MPs from Westminster decisions which by and large DO impact the UK as a whole. All the while the devolution of matters to Holyrood dilutes the ability of Scotland to make its voice heard at Westminster.

I do not equate Scottish Nationalism wanting Independence from the UK in any way with English Nationalism wanting to detach from the EU. Scotland as part of the UK has a Parliament in Westminster and then powers are devolved more locally to Holyrood. This is the reverse case of Sovereign states ceding limited powers to supranational decision making in the EU.

I completely agree with NS's comments on One Scotland but would want her to give far more recognition and rights to the Scottish diaspora in other parts of the UK and further afield over the future of Scotland.

howabout · 20/12/2016 16:07

Lurking we have been educating our US citizen DD1 via the Presidential election. We currently have a map picking out the largest States based on population and voting rights. The current topic of debate is why doesn't California get split up like the Eastern Seaboard and if it was what would be the effect.

I think what Andy Burnham has said about the North of England being squeezed out by the London Assembly and Holyrood has resonance.

merrymouse · 20/12/2016 16:15

Speaking as somebody who has always lived in the South East, I would be very worried about being abandoned to UKIP/the right wing of the Tory party with less influence from the North/Scotland/Wales. (Not including NI as so small and a bit of a different issue).

Peregrina · 20/12/2016 16:16

Even Project Brexit has Liam Fox and Michael Gove on board.

I can't say that I personally thought of Gove as a Scotsman.

merrymouse · 20/12/2016 16:20

Fox and Gove are immigrants to England. Without any 'birther' laws I think we are stuck with them.

MangoMoon · 20/12/2016 16:42

I do think it wouldn't be a bad thing to move toward a federal type setup tbh.
But rather than the blunt division of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, it would only really work if England was split down further too.

howabout · 20/12/2016 16:48

If Gove hadn't been brought up and educated in Scotland then perhaps he would have had a more considered approach to his reform of the English Education System Blush.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2016 16:52

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37691270
Commons vote to ratify Brexit deal likely, says No 10

May has been answering questions from the Brexit Select Committee. How is that a50 Labour vote for accountability looking now?

So no 2nd Referendum (ok fair enough to a point due to how well that's likely to go) AND now parliamentary vote.

How long do we think the position on the latter will last?

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RedToothBrush · 20/12/2016 16:56

Sorry I should say, they said it likely in October. May has now said today that its unlikely when asked by Hillary Benn about it.

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RedToothBrush · 20/12/2016 16:58

Move parliament out of London, and make Westminster a museum once renovated.

Watch politics change, if the commons and lords were somewhere else in England...

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NotDavidTennant · 20/12/2016 17:08

I can't say that I personally thought of Gove as a Scotsman.

Is this a literal invocation of No true Scotsman? Grin

howabout · 20/12/2016 17:10

All for moving Parliament out of London Red

howabout · 20/12/2016 17:16

NotDavid Scots can't even agree on what is their language so the idea of a "true Scotsman" or indeed "true Glaswegian / Aberdonian / Edinburgher" just makes me chortle. If Scotland ever does become Independent I give it about 5 years before there is a North / South / East / West split.

merrymouse · 20/12/2016 17:20

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/20/george-osborne-nick-clegg-spotted-lunch-london-soft-brexit

Obviously you can't draw any particular conclusions from this, but they clearly weren't trying to hide their meeting.

Peregrina · 20/12/2016 17:56

May has now said today that its unlikely when asked by Hillary Benn about it.
Will the Supreme Court decision have bearing on this?

Peregrina · 20/12/2016 17:57

When are the Tory party going to stab May in the back?

Peregrina · 20/12/2016 18:02

I'd not heard of the invocation of 'No True Scotsman' but whereas everyone knows that Gordon Brown is a Scotsman, or in another field, Andy Murray, Gove doesn't appear to identify in Scotland in any meaningful way.

SapphireStrange · 20/12/2016 18:03

When are the Tory party going to stab May in the back?

I'm not sure if they are, or if they're just going to wait patiently until she trips herself up.

merrymouse · 20/12/2016 18:45

To be fair, not all politicians identify strongly with their backgrounds.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 20:25

The Tory party are normally ruthless about getting rid of any leader who becomes a liability.
That's an important factor in why they've managed to be in government - and put their policies into practice - for a major chunk of the post-WW2 years.
< Labour might want to take lessons there >

Theresa May would be particularly vulnerable if Brexit disappoints, because she doesn't seem to have a real power base in the party, i.e. a group of supporters that genuinely like her & her policies.
Her record of achievement as a minister was pretty mediocre.
Also, she's not a good orator.

She only became leader because the other serious candidates succumbed to suicide or murder. After which, even the Tories couldn't stand Awful Andrea.

So, what are May's strengths ?
Well, she's a much more convincing leader than Corbyn, but that's a very low bar.
She's intended as a stopgap, who'll win the next GE, then take any flak from Brexit and step down in favour of a shiny new leader (Gove in false beard & kilt ? Bojo with a funny red nose ?)
This would be to convince the voters again that the Tory Party has changed. It's worked so far.

whatwouldrondo · 20/12/2016 20:42

Can you imagine if May led a move of government out of London? New capitals tend to be vanity projects, the latest to be initiated was by the Burmese Junta . It would be somewhere in the Home Counties on the London Oxford corridor, and it would look like Poundbury... There would be Waitrose but no Tesco (because Tesco exists to keep the working classes out of Waitrose, and there would be no working classes), and an Amanda Wakely of course. It would be surrounded by an impenetrable bubble of complacency, and foreigners would only be allowed in temporarily as diplomats, builders and cleaners.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 20:48

I visualise M&S in the new May capital (and rampant S&M)

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2016 20:54

There would be no privacy there .... hang on, I forgot:

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?