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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

OP posts:
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mathanxiety · 07/12/2016 07:40

The issue of standards is quite a nightmare.

'Britain may be about to adopt lower US standards on … everything

The Americans have lower consumer standards than Europe on pretty much everything, from chemical safety to data protection. A bilateral trade deal will see them demand we lower our standards so their products can enter our market more freely. Given how desperate we’ll be, we’re likely to comply'

(From Annie's Guardian link)

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 08:03

You get lasting peace by thoroughly defeating armed forces that have absolutely no respect for the values you want to see flourishing, and once this is accomplished you set about methodically making sure that they never raise their ugly heads again. This is how peace in Europe was established following WW2. It wasn't all Marshall Plan and Nuremberg and laws against Nazi symbols. All of that was preceded by military devastation of the Third Reich by Allied forces both western and eastern.

Merrymouse - you absolutely can bomb ideas and beliefs.

I completely disagree, and think that there are many, many examples where adversity has encouraged beliefs, ideas and religions to flourish. Far right nationalism wasn't completely eradicated by the Second World War as is blantantly obvious. Throw in the kind of economic adversity experienced by Germany beteeen the wars and any country in Europe would be at great risk. (Not that the risk is negligible now).

Once conditions have been established that are conducive to peace, you support the institutions that make civilised, peaceful, prosperous life possible, through thick and thin.

Who is going to do that in Syria? Assad? Russia? Iran? America? Europe? Assad is a dictator accused of war crimes who has brutally suppressed dissent.

The newfound popularity of headcovering is down to the operations of the Saudi Arabian Wahhabi sect, whose philosophy and money made the Taliban (and ISIS) possible.

Or a diverse group of people from a variety of backgrounds living in many different countries wear hijab for a variety of reasons.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 08:27

My main point is that there are no easy solutions in Syria or the Middle East, or to the problem of terrorism, much as it might suit the agenda of some politicians to pretend that there is.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/12/2016 08:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheNorthRemembers · 07/12/2016 08:46

RIP TTIP.

Is Theresa May ok? She looks like she has not slept in weeks. (That is my signature look.)

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 08:57

"It is hard to know where to start with this litany of stupid from the dissembling IDS, but let's try."

mobile.twitter.com/home

lurkinghusband · 07/12/2016 09:05

One gem:

British divorcees in Europe may become half-married

If European countries don’t like the way article 50 talks go, they could decide to not recognise legal decisions from London. At a snap, British divorcees who live in Europe would suddenly find themselves in a state of marital limbo – with their home country recognising their divorced status, but their adopted country considering them married.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 10:21

it's not so long ago that none of that was part of what the west was most proud of about itself.
Do you realise how little time has elapsed since the passage of the American Civil Rights Act? We have discussed in this thread how voters are turned away from voting in the US, how disenfranchisement works in the US.

I agree with all this, and this election has again high lighted that a large part of America doesn't share 'modern' values as defined by Merkel now.

However, even though consensus on many of these values has only emerged in the last decade or so, culturally there is a yawning chasm between Russia and the U.K. compared to, for instance, France and the U.K.

This doesn't just come down to modern values. There are also long standing social, and geographical reasons that make it advantageous for countries in Western Europe to do deals with each other and have some kind of unity.

Russia will continue to act in Russia's interests, and there is no particular need for it to adopt any 'western values'. Inevitably this will lead to conflict, because that is the way the world works.

(Until Star Trek becomes a reality, but then we will just be fighting other planets).

whatwouldrondo · 07/12/2016 10:24

Math I think you have jumped the shark on this. I agree with Misti there can be no excuses for propping up a regime that is every bit as brutal as ISIS www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/11/syria-suspected-chlorine-gas-attack-in-aleppo-kills-woman-and-two-children?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other by bombing a country into a wasteland.

As to putting in place any sort of successful civil government into the vacuum you create after you have bombed a country into submission then I would love to hear from you an example of where that has been done, or even where the West had any sort of plan in place to help a country develop a civil government that had roots in that country's culture and history and therefore some chance of achieving legitimacy with its people. Instead the West tends to ride in under the flag of what it regards as the only source of government legitimacy. For Russia that is dictatorship, for the US "democracy". However "Democracy" is not the perfect solution to government of all nations but in reality simply another imperfect system of government which has evolved in a particular culture, and does not necessarily transplant well, as we have seen in the Middle East.

If there is a lesson from history, and the UK has benefitted more than most from this, it is that evolution is better than Revolution, and that it is better to seek the equivocal and compromise.

That is exactly why I think Brexit is a stupid mistake, the EU was not perfect but it had evolved and was evolving as an institution that played an effective but not unequivocally effective role for it's member countries in the global economic and political environment of the 21st century. Now we are marching under some heroic red white and blue flag to a glorious future apparently, but as usual we will lay waste to years of evolution without a plan.....

Castelnaumansions · 07/12/2016 10:30

ron As to putting in place any sort of successful civil government into the vacuum you create after you have bombed a country into submission;
Dresden then Merkel springs to mind.

whatwouldrondo · 07/12/2016 10:33

Castelnau Merkel emerged from Unification not bombing.

whatwouldrondo · 07/12/2016 10:36

And the EU emerged as an institution whose legitimacy was in its shared culture and values, to embrace those as a way of avoiding Dresden ever happening again

PensionOutOfReach · 07/12/2016 10:38

it is that evolution is better than Revolution, and that it is better to seek the equivocal and compromise.

I think that is also culturally linked. The UK is doing better by evolution but France has a long history of revolutions, that do work too.

The problem in the ME is much more complex than just democracy or whatever. It's an issue with borders (and remembering that it's the UK who defined all the borders there), and issue with international politics (and the US wanting to be sure they have an access to oil whilst the Russia wants to ensure an access to the Mediterranean and probably increase their 'influence' on all that area).
If it was as simple as what sort of political system to put in place, this would have been resolved a long time ago.

PensionOutOfReach · 07/12/2016 10:40

Merkel raised thanks to the EU and the (re)unification of Germany.
Not from bombings that have happened more than 60 years ago.

whatwouldrondo · 07/12/2016 10:54

I would say that the strength of Merkel's values and her willingness to stand up for them, actually arise from having lived under a regime that tried to suppress them.

Pension I completely agree, the Middle East is a mess, partly as a result of all the intervention, and I have no idea what the solution is. I have not studied Islamic cultures but from what I have heard from those who have, indeed from some who are in excile because of their moderate views, I suspect part of the answer will have to come from Islam. Not the Islam of division and Jihad but an Islam that might not be wholly to the taste of the West either. I do know a little about China, and that system is not to the taste of the West, or even for the most part it's comprehension, but it does have it's roots in a system of government that goes back 2000 years and actually does have checks and balances built in. Tiannanmen was not about democracy, it was about airing ideas of how that system of government should evolve, which is why Deng Xiao Peng listened at first.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 10:54

Certainly the bombing of Dresden didn't lead to directly to democracy in Dresden.

TheNorthRemembers · 07/12/2016 10:59

Don't ever underestimate the longlasting effects of the war on the Continent. They may not go on and on about it like the UK, but it is there.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 11:02

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/trump-adviser-son-michael-flynn-sacked-pizzagate-comet-ping-pong-restaurant

This just isn't reassuring. They got rid of him, eventually, but his father doesn't seem much better.

Castelnaumansions · 07/12/2016 11:09

I disagree, merry.
If the 3rd Reich had not been defeated, the liberal democracies which have led to the EU, peaceful re unification of Germany and the emergence of a leader like Merkel, would not have happened. A woman like Merkel under the 3rd Reich, wouldn't even have been allowed to be trained as a scientist, never mind become a successful politician.
You want democracy; you have to get your hands dirty, sadly.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 11:22

Dresden was on the less democratic side of the Berlin Wall following World War II.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2016 11:29

If European countries don’t like the way article 50 talks go, they could decide to not recognise legal decisions from London. At a snap, British divorcees who live in Europe would suddenly find themselves in a state of marital limbo – with their home country recognising their divorced status, but their adopted country considering them married.

I got married in Europe. Will this make me married in future? What if I moved abroad?

Since there are no guarentees, could this get overlooked, leading to a legal nightmare in future if DH or I died? (Our life insurance is fine as its in each others names but we don't currently have a will - though we are in the process of sorting this out which would solve the problem - though the point sill stands for those in a similar position)

This is Lord Sumpton - one of the Supreme Court judges. He's wearing a Team GB Olympic tie.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Sumption cannot be trolling the tabloids with his Team GB tie, can he?

Red White and Blue Brexit or Olympic Fencer trolling?

Or both.

Either way, this man is a hero.

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 07/12/2016 11:29

If the 3rd Reich had not been defeated, or if it had not over stretched its military resources or as long as Hitler did not get assassinated or as long as America and Japan stayed out of the war in Europe or ad infinitum.......the thing about History is that it happened, as a result of an almost infinite list of factors that led to each and every outcome. We can analyse the importance of the factors but the outcome is as undeniable as the result of any scientific experiment.

Merkel did however grow up in a communist regime but that did not prevail over those values either.

merrymouse · 07/12/2016 11:30

Remember, Stalin also won the war.

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