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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 06/12/2016 17:55

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband
Right that the government will publish Brexit plan. Country and Parliament won't accept one of the 'dog ate my homework' variety....

I bet its what we are getting...

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Kaija · 06/12/2016 18:30

Just saw this excellent tweet:

"When people talk about getting the best brexit deal it sounds like when people say "she had a good death""

merrymouse · 06/12/2016 18:37

I hope the plan isn't revealed at the last minute in an underground lair by somebody with a cat.

annandale · 06/12/2016 18:49

Red White and Blue Brexit? Hmm Sounds like somebody rang Paul Dacre and asked what meaningless pablum would fit the Mail headline slot tomorrow.

SapphireStrange · 06/12/2016 18:53

annan, that's the most astute thing I've read today. I fear you're spot on.

Kaija · 06/12/2016 19:01

Yes

Cailleach1 · 06/12/2016 19:04

It probably won't be nice things like lace and tweed which will give most revenue to the UK. Purveyors of weapons and destruction readies for despots etc. Making a good start already.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-bahrain-saudi-arabia-boris-johnson-arms-sales-human-rights-abuse-a7459001.html

Kaija · 06/12/2016 19:46

Christ. Look at this. BBC invites members of EDL organised Boston group to Question Time audience

medium.com/@_phage/bbc-invite-edl-members-to-join-question-time-studio-audience-via-facebook-50eafcdebd2a#.cnmkk693s

Balance.

TheElementsSong · 06/12/2016 19:49

Mrs Miller @Topfluffer:

"Arron Banks looked in the mirror once and now he is the leading gynaecologist in the UK"

twitter.com/topfluffer/status/805890964430745600

Grin
lalalonglegs · 06/12/2016 20:15

God, Kaija, that's dreadful but those techniques for "precision targeting" would explain why the QT audiences recently have been quite, um, vociferous in their support of Brexit.

I heard bits and bobs of the Pannick speech through the afternoon, it was utterly effortless, almost a parody of a sang-froid, gentleman lawyer.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2016 21:30

The Canary ran a story yesterday about Alison Fuller Pedley (QT producer) questioning her political leanings and whether it was leading to bias on the programme. For the most part I think the article is bull shit, but I did wonder whether there was any truth in it. She apparently has shared Britain First Meme on Facebook herself.

It was the Canary so it went in one ear and out the other as it is far from quality journalism, but seeing as its being discussed, I'll post the link:
www.thecanary.co/2016/12/05/fresh-scandal-erupts-bbc-might-explain-question-time-became-right-wing/

As I say, I remain unconvinced by the story, but I certainly think that recruiting audience members from the EDL is hardly representative of the general public and is an extremist rather than mainstream agenda.

As I said the other day, its entertainment masquerading as meaningful and representative debate.

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Kaija · 06/12/2016 21:39

Meanwhile the masks are coming off. Fuckers.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2016 21:40

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/05/us-election-recount-michigan-donald-trump-hillary-clinton?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+morning+briefing+2016&utm_term=202998&subid=17748606&CMP=ema_a-morning-briefing_b-morning-briefing_c-US_d-1
US elections: broken machines could throw Michigan recount into chaos

Over half of Detroit and nearly one-third of Wayne County could be affected, and the recount won’t happen if discrepancies can’t be solved by recounting by hand

Broken polling machines may have put vote counts in question in more than half of Detroit’s precincts and nearly one-third of surrounding Wayne County, possibly throwing the Michigan recount into chaos.

If the discrepancies can’t be solved by recounting every paper ballot in question by hand, a recount in those precincts simply won’t happen.

Donald Trump’s slim margin over Hillary Clinton means any chance of the state flipping on a recount likely hinges on Wayne County, where the Democrat won by a landslide. Clinton lost by 10,704 votes in Michigan; Wayne’s population of 1,759,335 makes it the likeliest candidate to contain errors bigger than that margin.

There are three vote totals: the total number of votes the electronic ballot scanners report; the total number of people who signed the electoral roll, or “poll book”; and the total number of paper ballots filled out and stored in sealed containers. The poll books and the electronic ballot scanners do not match, so the paper ballots will be counted by hand. If hand-tallied ballots can’t resolve all the mismatches, the votes will stand in the counties where the errors remain.

Eighty-seven of Wayne County’s decade-old voting machines broke on election day, according to Detroit’s elections director, Daniel Baxter. He told the Detroit News, which first reported the story, that ballot scanners often jammed when polling place workers were trying to operate them. Every time a jammed ballot was removed and reinserted, he suspects the machine may have re-counted it.

Preliminary investigation by election officials in Wayne County found that 610 of the area’s 1,680 precincts could not reconcile the number of votes cast according to the machines with the number of ballots issued according to the electoral rolls. Detroit contains 662 of Wayne’s precincts; in 392 of those, the number of votes didn’t match up.

Baxter told the News he was confident a recount would match the ballots issued to the paper records, which are sealed and stored under guard. “I don’t think it’s going to be 100%,” he said, “but it never is with a recount.”

State law rejects a recount in places where the two figures don’t match up: a precinct is ineligible to be recounted if the “number of ballots to be recounted and the number of ballots issued on election day as shown on the poll list or the computer printout do not match and the difference is not explained to the satisfaction of the board of canvassers,” the law says.

My jaw just dropped when I read this. Lets just say our election law is much more robust than this. Thank god we just have paper ballots in this country.

Also hearing more rumblings on this, and expect that there may be more on problems with voting in Michigan coming out in the next couple of days.

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Devilishpyjamas · 06/12/2016 21:51

Red Tooth - I have seen pro-UKIP tweets from her.

Devilishpyjamas · 06/12/2016 21:52

Well to be more accurate someone linked to pro-UKIP tweets from a Twitter account that appeared to be hers.

annandale · 06/12/2016 21:55

I so want the Repeal Bill to be called the Poxy Little Repeal Bill. Great Repeal Bill my arsefeathers.

Devilishpyjamas · 06/12/2016 21:55

Oh her account has been deleted.

merrymouse · 06/12/2016 22:53

I was shocked by that too Red - not so much that it might benefit one side or the other, but that it seems to be generally accepted that the machines aren't accurate. Along with voter suppression, it makes the whole thing seem farcical.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2016 23:06

Yeah in another country the us would be asking for another election but they don't hold themselves to their own standards.

Haveigotnewsforyou @haveigotnewsforyou
She's making a list
She's checking it twice
She's gonna find out
Whose papers suffice
Amber Rudd is coming to town.

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merrymouse · 06/12/2016 23:08

Michael Heaver is, I think, something to do with media in UKIP.

Aren't Yougov spreading misunderstanding of the issue by conducting a poll?

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
merrymouse · 06/12/2016 23:12

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/14/decision-article-50-should-rest-pm-not-parliament-/

This is the Yougov article - poll carried out during first court case.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2016 23:25

Er hang on a second. The courts are supposed to listen to polls that say how the public want things? Even no, the courts act on the law as set out by parliament and then judge accordingly and impartiality on that basis.

However the government who are supposed to act on behalf of the people are doing a good job of ignoring all those polls which as saying that the public want the single market still and don't want to be financially worse off with hard brexit or have to pay extra for hard brexit in any way.

But then again we have established that ukip don't agree with our current legal system. And no I'm not talking about the 10% of convicted ukip former meps (great stat that one) who have a grudge but the ones who want justice to be based on political views and therefore about as fair as sending a 5 year old into a boxing ring against a heavyweight champion and saying it's perfectly ok.

And every time anyone suggestions this type of thing is for the people, I simply say the word Hillsborough on repeat.

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mathanxiety · 07/12/2016 06:57

Mistigri Mon 05-Dec-16 08:12:35
math I guess you're not proposing that we barrel-bomb KKK strongholds, however.
If there were strongholds, then I would be all for that. The best I can personally do is support agencies that oppose the extreme Right and racism in general.

You can argue the toss about whether wearing hijab is a sign of oppression or the freedom to assert your Muslim identity, but muslim women in the UK are not covering their heads because of ISIS.
The newfound popularity of headcovering is down to the operations of the Saudi Arabian Wahhabi sect, whose philosophy and money made the Taliban (and ISIS) possible. According to the Wahhabis, we are all Infidels heading straight to hell.

While it may it be possible to keep a check on some of his behaviour for a while, Assad isn't offering these things either. It might be better to live in Assad's Syria than under ISIS, but he originally created the conditions that allowed ISIS to gain a foot hold. Assuming the present crisis is somehow declared to be over, what happens next - will he be more suppressive?
Assad's Syria did not do the following:
1...Massacre Christian communities, enslave women and children, destroy ancient monuments; in fact, Assad's Syria was a pluralistic society. It is horrifying to think that the lesson that may be taken from the devastation of Syria is that pluralism in the middle east is taken as an open invitation by Islamic Fundamentalists to take over and inflict on the infidel pluralists the wrath of their twisted god.
(Turkey is currently hedging its bets in this regard - looking less secular and more militarised and with power becoming concentrated. This is in response to the threat from fundamentalism.)
2...Nuke Israel. Again, this is one of the aims of ISIS and if anyone tries this then we will have WW3 on our hands. All well and good for ISIS because they are sure they will get their heavenly reward for wiping out the Jews. Not so good for anyone else.
If/when ISIS is driven out of Syria, Assad is going to owe Russia and other western forces (but mainly Russia) big time because they will have contributed to the defeat of the barbarians.

Putin certainly doesn't share all Merkel's values of
"democracy, freedom and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political views".
And neither do many western states. And if they do, they are late to this particular party, because it's not so long ago that none of that was part of what the west was most proud of about itself.
Do you realise how little time has elapsed since the passage of the American Civil Rights Act? We have discussed in this thread how voters are turned away from voting in the US, how disenfranchisement works in the US. Legislation decriminalising gay sex? How long since that became legal in several western states? Not long. And while Germany is nowadays in many ways a beacon of enlightenment, it falls far short of what can be described as just when it comes to rape victims' rights.

The west is a very varied place, and 'western values' do not always obtain everywhere west of Pskov, or even uniformly in all parts of every country in the west. See NI and women's rights for example. Take a look at recent events concerning women's rights in Poland. I myself grew up in Ireland.

Whatwouldrondo - You get lasting peace by thoroughly defeating armed forces that have absolutely no respect for the values you want to see flourishing, and once this is accomplished you set about methodically making sure that they never raise their ugly heads again. This is how peace in Europe was established following WW2. It wasn't all Marshall Plan and Nuremberg and laws against Nazi symbols. All of that was preceded by military devastation of the Third Reich by Allied forces both western and eastern.
Merrymouse - you absolutely can bomb ideas and beliefs.

Once conditions have been established that are conducive to peace, you support the institutions that make civilised, peaceful, prosperous life possible, through thick and thin. Or alternatively, you forget all the lessons of war and decide to turn your back on the EU, while the EU for its part allows itself to be sucked into grandiose American hegemonic ambition and turns its back on the opportunity business presents for the forging of common interests and common values (what was the EEC about, way back when?) between the EU and Russia, and you also ignore the opportunities Russia presents for business growth (while business leaders shake their heads sadly and mutter in German about cutting off of noses to spite faces).

Motheroffourdragons · 07/12/2016 07:16

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