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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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17
prettybird · 01/12/2016 07:48

We knew this already but this is another example of TM's hard line attitude to immigration - wanting to cut across the law human rights

Theresa May had plan to 'deprioritise' illegal migrant pupils
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38165395

Have to say my admiration for Nicky Morgan has gone up, in her resistance to these proposals.

MariePoppins · 01/12/2016 08:45

The UK is nowhere near the only country that has no other choice than using seasonal workers for agriculture/picking fruits and vegs.

That's actually quite a normal thing to happen because there just isn't enough people to do all that work over such a short period of time.
A few years ago, lots of people were coming to France during the summer month to try and earn some money. The family would come (men and women) leaving the children to the grand parents to be looked after for a period of 4 to 6 months. Because there was NO job in Spain at all and it was better than nothing. I think people are coming from Eastern countries now.

I'm interested by the idea that so many people dont want to go back to their own country though as I havent come across that issue before. I'm wondering what is attracting them to the UK (it isn't the benefit system - for that you'd better go to France instead). Maybe its an issue with countries?

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 08:48

The FT is reporting on a growing recruitment crisis in agriculture, with half of all agencies supplying seasonal workers unable to recruit enough workers in the July to September period

So, wages go up ...

MariePoppins · 01/12/2016 08:50

From the same article as pretty

The Home Office also wanted schools to carry out immigration checks.
So people were right to be up in arms about schools asking for passports etc...
Im really wondering, is it the role of school to police immigration???

As for Human rights... sorry but it has always been the poor member of the family in british politics. And that's where Europe had a very strong role in protecting the members of the public (see the snooping bill passed too) and the wish to remove the Human Act Rights.

Yep that's it. TM is slowly showing her real colours. And they aren't pretty.

MariePoppins · 01/12/2016 08:52

Oh... that's a new way of looking at things.

The relationship between poor performing schools and voting Brexit
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38155858

Peregrina · 01/12/2016 09:05

^The Home Office also wanted schools to carry out immigration checks.
So people were right to be up in arms about schools asking for passports etc...^

Plus the way the question was sneaked in by the back door.

Mistigri · 01/12/2016 09:06

So, wages go up ...

So food prices go up. Or British produce is substituted by cheaper imports. (Or a bit of both).

If you are not stopped by the paywall, I recommend reading the comments to that FT article: some actual farmers have contributed. The problem with getting local people to do the jobs is several fold:

  • the jobs are not necessarily located in areas of high unemployment
  • you cannot raise a family on seasonal work paid at or just above the NLW (whereas for a Romanian, 8-12 weeks working away from their family, paid at several times the wage what they could earn at home, may seem attractive - or at least did appear attractive until they got a 15% real-terms pay cut)
  • British people do not, by and large, want to get up at 4am and work until late at night in the rain and the cold.

Of course higher wages would make these jobs more attractive and easier to fill, but the statistics in that article suggest that wages would need to be very significantly higher. In practice, it's more likely that equilibrium in this particular job market would be reached by a reduction in the demand for labour (due to farmers going out of business) than by an increase in the supply due to wages rising.

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 09:08

As for Human rights... sorry but it has always been the poor member of the family in british politics. And that's where Europe had a very strong role in protecting the members of the public (see the snooping bill passed too) and the wish to remove the Human Act Rights.

As the satirical headline went: "Theresa May: I'll decide who gets human rights".

There appears to be a weird deliberate ignorance over human rights in a lot of English people, allied with a perverse pride in that ignorance. Luckily it's easy to spot, and not engage with. Unluckily, it affects senior politcians who are supposed to be less thick.

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 09:11

Mistigri

In practice, it's more likely that equilibrium in this particular job market would be reached by a reduction in the demand for labour (due to farmers going out of business) than by an increase in the supply due to wages rising.

Did you not read the news ? The government is to guarantee farmers incomes are protected ? It will require a slight adjustment in the British diet (which is no bad thing) though. As we start eating chassis, engines, gearboxes and windscreens ....

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 09:18

Alternatively :

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38111945

Albania has become the largest producer of outdoor-grown cannabis in Europe. The potent plant has been described as "green gold" for struggling farmers. In a poor nation, it's a billion-euro industry.
Off a dirt road, in a small village north of Tirana, there's a half-built, tumble-down, brick house. It stands alone and looks abandoned. It isn't. The sweet, heady odour that seeps from one of the rooms reveals its current function: cannabis production. Inside, more than half the floor space is covered with buds of the drying drug.
"There's about 20kg here," says the man who owns it. He is young - late 20s maybe - dressed in skinny jeans, a tight top and trainers. And he is one of thousands making money from the cannabis boom.

(contd)

Peregrina · 01/12/2016 09:32

What, so we should start growing cannabis then?

howabout · 01/12/2016 09:52

No idea how a shortage of migrant labour will ultimately affect farming as I am under the impression that EU grants and subsidies and policies on greenbelt management are far more influential on farming economics than any farming activity.

Before we all start growing cannabis commercially we will need to legalise it to sort out the tax take. This may well have a detrimental impact on overseas producers.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 01/12/2016 10:06

The care industry faces similar problems.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/migrant-workers-could-solve-uks-crippling-shortage-of-care-workers-report-says-a6737141.html

(DF had 2 carers, 4 x a day this summer (on the NHS!) ALL were migrants.)

Unicornsarelovely · 01/12/2016 10:16

We'd probably find more brits were willing to pick cannabis.

howabout · 01/12/2016 10:17

I don't think importing migrant workers prepared to work for poverty wages is or should be the solution to the structural issues in the care sector. In the same way importing doctors and nurses is not a sensible long term alternative to training and funding our school leavers properly.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 01/12/2016 10:22

Nor do I, but I fully expect Brexit will exacerbate the problems.

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 10:24

What, so we should start growing cannabis then?

Well, if it makes enough money Grin

Before we all start growing cannabis commercially we will need to legalise it to sort out the tax take.

The UK already grows cannabis - both hemp for industry, and cannabis for pharmaceuticals - quite legally ... (hemp milk is a good dairy substitute - and very nice).

This may well have a detrimental impact on overseas producers.

I really can't seeing that troubling Brexiteers Smile

We'd probably find more brits were willing to pick cannabis.

You don't really "pick" it - you cut the entire plant down and then remove the bits which aren't "cannabis". If it's being done commercially, you have trimming machines.

MariePoppins · 01/12/2016 10:25

And maybe also just training our children properly.
Everyone knows that its very hard to get to medicine because they are so few places.
The question I want to ask is, if you increase the number of places, will all the students doing the course still be the appropriate level to do medicine and able to cope with the stupid hours once a junior doctor?

merrymouse · 01/12/2016 10:29

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/plan-brexit-austerity-voters-spending-money-chancellor

John Redwood:

"Remain tried to dismiss its importance by claiming there was in practice little money at stake, and disagreed strongly with any reference to the gross figure for UK contributions."

Yes, because quoting the gross figure was completely irrelevant.

"The public did not take away one particular figure from the debate, but did believe that we contributed substantial money that it would be useful to spend at home."

No they did take away a particular figure. It was £350 million. 48% of 'the public' believed that the advantages of staying in the EU outweighed the disadvantages. What do/did the public think of the single market? Nobody has a clue. They weren't asked.

Basically the plan is that the UK becomes self sufficient and sells more stuff abroad. Probably by copying the German house building industry. To be successful, I think house builders will have to be a little more accurate with their measurements than Mr Redwood.

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 10:39

Basically the plan is that the UK becomes self sufficient and sells more stuff abroad

So if it's that easy, why haven't we done it in the past 200 years ?

MitzyLeFrouf · 01/12/2016 11:12

So David Davis has said they’d consider paying EU budget contributions in exchange for single market access. Hmmm, sounds remarkably like EU membership…….

lurkinghusband · 01/12/2016 11:26

So David Davis has said they’d consider paying EU budget contributions in exchange for single market access. Hmmm, sounds remarkably like EU membership…….

Except we'd have no say in any EU laws and regulations ...

Is this a tacit admission that without access to the single market, there is no way to make up the Brexit shortfall ?

Or, put another way, why consider spending X for access to the single market unless you are sure it will make Y in return, where Y>X and Y-X>whatever we lose as a result of Brexit ?

SapphireStrange · 01/12/2016 11:27

Shock Has David D said that today/recently?

It just gets better and better, doesn't it?

maizieD · 01/12/2016 11:29

So if it's that easy, why haven't we done it in the past 200 years ?

Delurking to say that we did.

We had this handy little thing called an Empire which we took raw resources from at minimal cost and manufactured goods from them in the UK. Goods which we then sold back to the 'colonies' for a very good profit. I think we were also a bit protectionist, too...

MitzyLeFrouf · 01/12/2016 11:30

Yep, this morning Sapphire.