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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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merrymouse · 05/12/2016 20:41

Re: the transcript of today's hearing, it's quite refreshing to read conversations between experts, even if it's difficult to follow all their points. I can see myself returning to it if things get really bad - you know, too many tweets from Julia Hartley Brewer, an excess of Farage.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 20:54

Aren't UKIP being investigated by the UK electoral commission, 'an independent body set up by the UK parliament'.

Funny how you don't really hear much about it. When they talk about corruption and the EU being rotten I wonder if they are referring to themselves. Do you think they will eschew any pensions if/when the UK leaves the EU. They don't want the poor UK taxpayer to be sending oodles of dosh to Brussels to pay their pensions and healthcare etc. as former UK MEP's, do they? They disagree with that, don't they? Or maybe Paul Nuttall knows he won't suffer if the NHS is privatised as the UK taxpayer will be paying his private health insurance as an MEP. Nigel Farage was very coy about his private health insurance being paid by the UK taxpayers among others courtesy of his MEP EU insurance. They are probably not backwards putting their snouts in the trough and then some. Maybe fraudulently if they are under investigation.

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/uk-independence-party-subject-of-new-electoral-commission-investigation

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 20:54

Party Numbers

I was astonished - and pleasantly surprised - to learn how tiny UKIP's membership is, for a supposedly serious national party.
Nutall was elected leader by only 9,622 people, but his rival received under 3,000 votes

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/new-ukip-leader-paul-nuttall-plans-destroy-labour-can-he-succeed

UKIP are real minnows with under 40k members. No wonder they aren't organised at local level for GEs - too thinly spread around 650 seats

In contrast, Labour have 515k members; Tories 150k, SNP 120k, Liberals 80k - the latter have jumped 20k since the referendum:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/liberal-democrat-membership-soars-80000-8942375

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 21:03

Ukip MEPs* more likely to go to prison than Romanians*

Only 0.5% of Romanians in the UK are currently in jail versus nearly 10% of Ukip MEPs who have been imprisoned since 1999

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 21:16

bigchocs it goes much further than that TBH.
When working as an engineer in the uk, I have been told that I wasn't doing my job well because I had found a way to increase my own productivity (nothing fancy, I just used a template rather than redoing the whole document!).
I've had customers expecting an answer within a couple of hours and people on the other side thinking that an answer in two days was more than appropriate.
That was in the automotive industry where you just can NOT take the risk of stopping the assembly line Confused

It's not just a management issue. It's the overall attitude to the idea of 'doing something URGENTLY' as well as having any idea of how to be organised and having the appropriate training IMO.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 21:19
Confused
Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
merrymouse · 05/12/2016 21:32

uk.businessinsider.com/labour-have-no-view-on-supreme-court-article-50-case-diane-abbott-2016-12

Given that they apparently completely support free movement, but here seem to be saying that they have no problem with A50 being triggered Labour seem to be representing quite a thin slice of the population.

But on the other hand, from the article:

The government today accused Labour of trying to "frustrate" and "slow down" Brexit.

"[Labour are] seeming to make clear that they want to frustrate the will of the British people by slowing down the process of leaving and trying to tie the government's hands in this negotiation," the prime minister's spokesperson told the parliamentary lobby.

Is it another part of the Labour Party that is doing the frustrating?

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 22:08

Good to see Ruth Davidson talking some sense. We need a few more politicians like that.

howabout · 05/12/2016 22:50

squoosh actually Paisley Abbey played host to a UK / Indian collaborative fashion show inspired by Paisley patterns a few months back.

The Scottish arts and music industry is very much about cutting edge design with an international outlook as are the thriving tech and financial sectors. In common with most of the UK all about services rather than manufacture.

Pertinent article on the recent decline in UK productivity relative to other G7 since 2008. 4% gap now at 18%+. Looks very much like failure in government policy on investment and employment.

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/18/uk-productivity-gap-widens-to-worst-level-since-records-began

Mark Carney making some interesting points on the negative impact of globalisation today.

MangoMoon · 05/12/2016 22:55

The MN trust report (EU related).

http://www.mumsnet.com/pdf/mumsnet-trust-report-final-1.pdf

howabout · 05/12/2016 22:58

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/05/mark-carney-isolation-globalisation-bank-of-england

MC's pretty robust of my criticisms of him about 20 threads ago. Where if I were in his shoes I would not have used monetary policy to neutralise the worst of austerity his very reasonable defence is that it is the job of the BoE to keep the patient alive till the government in charge of fiscal policy comes to its senses.

HesterThrale · 05/12/2016 23:11

I like the way Ken Clarke handles NF in this clip. Especially the last minute or so:

www.channel4.com/news/brexit-farage-v-clarke

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2016 07:33

I've never understood why Mark Carney received so much criticism - he saved the pound & the economy from falling off a cliff, during a period when politicians were running around like headless chickens.

It was obvious he had to apply emergency first aid, until the government sorted itself out (well, still waiting there)

I can only think leading Brexiters were angry because his actions showed it was an emergency situation and indicated that Brexit itself might have serious economic consequences, which was contrary to what some of them had been telling voters.

However, if he hadn't acted, Brexit in fact might have been called off - by the IMF coming in.
So, we should all be very grateful that he and other public servants didn't run away like politicans did.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2016 07:35

I've just realised that might have been Cameron's emergency plan if he lost - rescue by the IMF

InformalRoman · 06/12/2016 08:04

One to remind Brexiters of if the Supreme Court uphold the High Court ruling.

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
harvestmoon32 · 06/12/2016 08:13

Warning: take a seat before opening this link.......

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38217040

Grin
harvestmoon32 · 06/12/2016 08:21

Wish I hadn't turned the PC on this morning!

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38212049?intlink_from_url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-37976580&link_location=live-reporting-correspondent" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38212049?intlink_from_url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-37976580&link_location=live-reporting-correspondent

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/italy-will-soon-haunted-inability-reform/

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/how-algeria-could-destroy-the-eu/

Motheroffourdragons · 06/12/2016 08:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/12/2016 08:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheElementsSong · 06/12/2016 08:47

Nice summary of Banks vs Beard on History of Rome Grin

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukip-arron-banks-mary-beard-rome_uk_5845c2d5e4b07ac7244927f6

Kaija · 06/12/2016 08:48

There are moments when you are really brought face to face with what a surreal nightmare we are in.

Did you all see Arron Banks on Twitter last night arguing with Mary Beard about Roman history?

Three guesses what he thinks caused the fall of the Roman Empire.

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5845c2d5e4b07ac7244927f6?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Kaija · 06/12/2016 08:48

Ah, x-posts Grin

Peregrina · 06/12/2016 09:07

I shouldn't worry about Farage being on the Times Man of the Year list. He would be in good company alongside Hitler and Stalin, who are both previous winners.

Having said that sometimes better people win - Churchill springs to mind, although even he had a mixed reputation before the War.

Figmentofmyimagination · 06/12/2016 09:12

How much better the country would be with Ruth Davidson as PM.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 06/12/2016 09:44

I think Ruth would do a much better job than TM.