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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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Peregrina · 05/12/2016 18:37

The Uk has had a problem with low productivity - since the late 19th century (!)

I suspect that this has something to do with being able to rely on The Empire, so we didn't need to be competitive. I know Germany had a bit of an Empire but not much.

Add to this, poor quality of management - the Germans don't seem to have problems with engineers heading factories - we tend to prefer accountants. As for our MPs - how many are scientists or have practical skills? We tend to go for the 'Gifted Amateur' and the world has now changed and it doesn't work any more.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 18:46

I suspect that German businesses also have financial directors!

PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 18:50

France had quite a few colonies (they wouldn't talk about an empire though) and are competitive too.

I would actually say that the reason for poor productivity is the culture of the 'good enough' and the looking at education as not being that interesting rather than the way to move on (and up).

PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 18:52

I looked at the titles in France re Italy today.
Instead of all the doom and gloom headlines, you mainly had a 'well yes they did vote NO but the EU had planned for that is already up anyway' aka really not a big deal anyway....

Always interesting to see how different countries see the different events.

TheNorthRemembers · 05/12/2016 18:56

If there is anyone here with a background in international trade law, I'd be very interested in how new WTO joiners are treated. Was the UK ever a pain the backside with other countries when they joined? (Impossible!)

Only asking because I distinctly remember our government whinging about why small countries like Mexico (population 122 million) is ever allowed to vote in the UN Security Council. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War So we must be popular in diplomatic circles.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 19:04

Aaron Banks currently telling Mary Beard all about Rome on Twitter.

Just incase more confirmation were needed that he really doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 19:05

I didn't say that German businesses didn't have finance directors. They do have much more respect for technical and engineering qualifications than we do which may account for our lack of productivity.

Castelnaumansions · 05/12/2016 19:06

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/ukip-struggle-get-message-across-sleaford-north-hykeham-election/
Mr Farage of the fukups Grin

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 19:08

I agree peregrina.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 19:20

In mainland EU I get so much more respect for my STEM qualifications, e.g. in Germany I am Frau Doctor Big Choc, until they offer chocs we make friends and go to first names.

I am also much further up the career / pay ladder doing science / tech than I could be in the UK
(admin brings me out in hives Smile )

Also, it's usual even for professionals to do just contracted hours - I've not found presenteeism or unpaid overtime to be a work culture in any mainland country.
It's why I haven't worked in the UK for years - terrible work / life balance and uncompetitive pay, for scientists at least. Maybe different in other fields

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 19:26

Productivity is a real puzzle in the UK. Education certainly has a lot to do with it, but there are other factors, including the much short-term perspective of many UK business managers, and lack of investment in their people. If you have high staff turnover and the cost of churning employees is minimal, you may prefer to use cheap labour rather than investing in better ways of doing things.

TheBathroomSink · 05/12/2016 19:27

castel that is a truly awesome picture of NF at the top of that Spectator piece. I would love to see that become the default picture of him!!

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 19:31

There are UK companies that have a healthy respect for scientists - I work for one. I think one of the key differences compared to other UK companies is how it has been made possible for people with high level scientific or technical skills to have a career progression that does not necessarily require them to move into general management. I've been in the same company 27 years and have been able to climb the ladder without having to do the management stuff I have no interested in - I'm paid to be an expert not a hand holder.

lalalonglegs · 05/12/2016 19:37

I think Misti may be onto something there - productivity can be improved by good management yet, certainly in the companies I have worked for, managers tend to be people who have progressed up the career ladder rather than been trained to take on new responsibilities. Therefore, many of them struggle with managing people and the expectations of their new role - as far as they were concerned they were being rewarded for previously good work with a nice job title and a pay rise. The fact that their expertise in a field now means that they have responsibilities for organising and motivating a team comes as a bit of a surprise to some.

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 19:39

I'm paid to be an expert not a hand holder.

I do think that is one of our problems. I can think of a number of jobs I have had, where a perfectly able technical person has been promoted to a managerial level and been well, at best OK, and sometimes awful. Really good managers were few and far between.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 19:42

Big Choc, I don't even think even if someone can and does block UK's membership of the WTO they are necessarily an enemy or being vindictive. It's business and competition. Some country may regard it as nothing particularly personal. Just competition and not wanting to give a sucker an even break or a better trading position just 'cos they can.

Just send Penny Mordaunt. She can just publicly say that no country can block another (even if it is untrue). Remember she said four times on the Andrew Marr show that no EU country can veto Turkey becoming a member of the EU. Insisted it was the truth and not a lie. Even though her party kept saying to Scotland that Spain and Belgium would block their application in the case of Independence. She has never apologized and has been on the box since in her capacity of Conservative MP. Baldly lying doesn't dent you credibility, apparently.

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 19:43

The fact that their expertise in a field now means that they have responsibilities for organising and motivating a team comes as a bit of a surprise to some.

I think the opposite can work too - some people don't progress because they are only so-so technically but can be quite able people managers. Generally too - training is seen as an overhead to be cut as soon as budgets get tight, instead of a long term investment.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 20:09

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/05/eu-remainers-views-must-be-heard-and-brexit-fighting-must-end-says-davidson

Ruth Davidson:
“Our decision to leave the European Union hasn’t determined which path we’ll take. That’s a decision we’ll make as a nation."

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 20:12

www.supremecourt.uk/docs/draft-transcript-monday-161205.pdf

Maybe for hardcore westminstenders fans!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 20:18

My personal experience only:

In the 2 brief Uk jobs I had, 1980s, very disorganised firms and you had to be in the right clique to progress. Maybe I was unlucky on both occasions, but I thought management was uniformly dreadful and I had no future at either firm.

Good, reliable management in Sweden and the Netherlands; clever but rather lazy in France & Italy (but only brief stays in each)

Quality of managers at all levels has ranged from excellent to absolutely outstanding in Germany, where I have worked most often since late 1980s.
Very professional, organised; afaik, they receive training before managing staff and more training as they progress.

All staff have paid training days every year, which keeps a very high skill level. I think this real investment in skills helps German firms just as much as their good management.
The Works Councils leads to workers having more say and imo feeling they have more stake in the firm - it's a shame TM ditched that idea, but I don't think she was ever serious about empowering workers.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 20:24

UKIP can't spell the constituency where they want to be elected Smile
That shows preparation and respect for the voters who live there. Not.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 20:30

UKIP may also face a financial squeeze before the GE - or Nuttall will have to sack lots of people he's just appointed.
When you are mainly funded by one zillionaire, you have to do as he wants, or the money taps may get turned off:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/05/ukip-donor-arron-banks-hints-he-may-stop-supporting-party

"I haven’t decided what to do re Ukip,” said Banks, the bank.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 20:39

John Curtice doesn't rate UKIP's chances of winning many seats. in a GE.
He said that where Ukip had come second in the GE, they were beaten on average by over 30%.
So, it would require a massive swing in public opinion for them to get more than literally a handful of seats.

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