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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

OP posts:
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merrymouse · 05/12/2016 16:30

It matters not what Argentina want to call the FI - the islanders themselves are categoric that they do not wish to be 'owned' by anyone, especially Argentina.

I think that from Argentina's point of view they are basically foreign immigrants who are welcome to apply for Argentinian citizenship. Argentina are certainly still claiming sovereignty. What ever the rights and wrongs of their point of view, they clearly still hold it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/29/falkland-islands-argentina-waters-rules-un-commission?client=safari

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 16:32

Yemenis.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2016 16:35

order-order.com/2016/12/05/ukip-by-election-effort-lacking/
Farage is out campaigning in 'Sleaford and North Hykenham' according to the banner behind him.

Whoops.

OP posts:
InformalRoman · 05/12/2016 16:37

The question is whether Argentina can block non EU Uk membership of the WTO. Blackballing, if you like.

But you can bet that they will play hardball when it comes to beef quotas and tariffs - it is going to be massively complicated:

tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/hilton-beef-quota/

SapphireStrange · 05/12/2016 16:44

I know this was ages ago now, but it's bothering me:

whatwould, you asked 'Math Why do you credit ISIS as being in any way representative of the Muslim community of the world, anymore than say white supremacists in the US are representative of Christians there'.

math WASN'T crediting ISIS with anything of the kind, in my reading anyway. She was saying exactly the opposite. No? Confused

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 16:46

Yes. I find it amazing how people think only the UK has national interests or has a right to try to operate in their own national interests. Anyone else who does it is just mean or bad.

No doubt fantasy will be given a lesson in reality.

PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 16:49

Well, if the uk wants (and it will have to TBH) be part of WTO, it will have to do it following the rules of that organisation.
That means it will also to deal with the other countries part of the organisation, incl countries such as Argentina, that might not be keen on being helpful with the UK.

I'm not sure what there is to say about it part from the fact it's quite normal not to get on well with all the members of such large group??

Can some of those countries make things difficult? Of course they will. Not because they always will want to get revenge or whatever. But because, like all the other countries, they will want to protect their own interest.
That's also why being part of such a big group as the EU was so helpful.

PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 16:49

cailleach you said the same thing than me but much better than me!!

PensionOutOfReach · 05/12/2016 16:50

I also love the idea that the same tariffs than when we were in the EU should be applied.
That sounds to me like having your cake and eating it too.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 16:53

Informal, the merry men and women campaigning for Leave said it would easy, peasy, lemon squeezy.

All those tycoons and media moguls wouldn't have bankrolled it if it was hard or detrimental to the common good in any way. There were no lies. It will be as simple as telling Argentina they depend totally on the UK and no more corned beef will be bought if they don't give tariff free access with a cherry on top. Suzanne Evans on HIGNFY did reduce the EU's dependence on the UK as 'heavily dependent', but I'm that applies to the entire universe and the fantasy version of how it all works. In fact Suzanne Evans said the EU will be the only ones paying for the 500 million to trade with a country of 60 million who don't really manufacture much any more. And nobody knows how services will go.

InformalRoman · 05/12/2016 17:04

Cailleach1 - my mistake, I'm talking the country down, aren't I?

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 17:17

Sorry, I'm fed up after looking at the Sunday Politics yesterday and the rubbish still being peddled as political analysis. The only person who Neil tried to have a go at was Clegg who quite rightly said it is up to the Conservative party and their brexiteers to make all they campaigned for come out right.

Johnson jabbing at Starmer and refusing any discussion by just accusing him of thwarting the will of the people sits as a propagandist dogwhistle media effort from someone untroubled by any truth, integrity or conscience. Or even reason. Played for the same audience as during the campaign. So was it a lie about the NHS, Johnson? Will farmers still get the same or even more money post EU? Why do you not want the UK parliament to be sovereign, Boris Johnson? Do you not want the democratic will of the people to be voiced in the first referendum on the direction of the exit?

If it goes belly up, the brexit campaigners will be responsible. Certainly those in government. You can't shift any of your blame over to someone looking for parliamentary scrutiny and sovereignty over the direction of a non binding and advisory referendum.

Still not as belligerent or pretending I totally know what I'm talking about like Andrew Neil talking to Nick Clegg.

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 17:18

Sapphire If you read on I had cross posted with Math when they acknowledged that and I then recognised that they had.

Re Nottingham Lace we have quite a few businesses in the U.K. that export high quality goods to the luxury end of the overseas markets based on past manufacturing expertise. There are still textile companies exporting British wool from the northern milltowns as well to the couture fashion industry worldwide. Alongside the lace for royal weddings the last Nottingham lace factory also serves the niche for money no object Middle Eastern and Asian weddings too.

However that is a bit different to employing a third of Nottingham's working population as its lace industry did in the past, and the textile industry an even greater proportion of the working population in the Northern mill towns.

It certainly does not have the potential to make up for the damage to our competitive service industries either that are likely to result from a hard Brexit.

SapphireStrange · 05/12/2016 17:20

whatwould, oh yes, I see now. Sorry!

howabout · 05/12/2016 17:34

All a bit hyperbolic in here again aim. Probably worth bearing in mind that the WTO does not have the same legal status as an entity in its own right as the EU.

In the context of the Nottingham lace discussion the Far East and increasingly near Asia are by far the most important growth markets for Scottish Whisky - the EU has too many of its own preferred tipples to compete with.

I strongly suspect the same is true for niche fashions like cashmere, Harris Tweed and traditional jewellery but would need to research further to be sure.

In relation to Argentina the issue is not beef but export of semen from our strapping Scottish native breeds.

Cupofteaandtoilet · 05/12/2016 17:42

Thanks for all the Nottingham lace info. I must have phrased my question very badly though! I wasn't asking whether niche quality exports could make Britain great again Grin - I was pondering on why we need to leave the EU to make trade deals when it seems we are already trading quite happily with the rest of the world.

Simplistic I'm sure.

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 17:45

Been busy all afternoon - thanks for the info on the Lace factory. I will try to catch up with the programme. My granny was a lacemaker in Ilkeston before (and maybe during) WW1 and came from quite a line of them according to old census records. I don't think it was shell suits which killed the industry Grin - cheaper imports probably, an inability to move with the times, and lack of investment i.e. the usual story with British Industry.

squoosh · 05/12/2016 17:48

The weavers in Paisley would have been excitedly firing up the ancient looms at the thought of the British textiles industries staging a comeback.

Grin
merrymouse · 05/12/2016 17:48

Yes cup. It's not clear why being in the EU is stopping the UK from exporting whisky, cashmere or lace now.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2016 17:53

Nothing is static, though. I read somewhere that Japanese whisky is now quite desirable.

Fromwww.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/11204872/Scotland-loses-out-as-Japanese-whisky-named-best-in-the-world.html

"Scotland loses out as Japanese whisky named best in the world
For the first time, not a single Scottish whisky has made it into top five of Whisky Bible 2015 "

Harris is only so big. Although lovely and tweed lovely too. The picture you are painting seems to be there are good products in Scotland. Scottish cashmere is not a huge industry, is it? I was trying to source ethical cashmere previously and think it is small scale.

All lovely and desirable items. And wonderful for those producing and enjoying them.

WrongTrouser · 05/12/2016 17:56

Regarding the Italian referendum, I agree with those that say the British press is over-simplifying

Yes, many on the right voted NO because they preferred 5 and La Lega to Renzi. But I also know many educated, left-leaning, urban professionals, who voted NO, because they had researched the ins and outs of the proposed constitutional reform and were not convinced by what was on the table*

Sounds very familiar.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 18:11

www.forbes.com/sites/felipeschrieberg/2016/06/24/how-brexit-affects-the-whisky-industry/#673f3d7e1542

Here is some info on whisky. In summary, we are trading existing level of access to EU markets and trade deals for potential of better trade deals with countries like India.

Whisky industry opposed to Brexit.

Who to believe? Industry experts or Boris, some politicians who until 6 months ago were campaigning for remain and a political party who are unable to order signs that spell Hykeham correctly?

This is why the government need to start convincing people that they know what they are doing, even if that annoys the people who can't spell Hykeham.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 18:20

I've been worried since I read up in early July about WTO approval .....
that it could be a dream come true for our enemies:
the UK over a barrel, humiliated.

It's not often that a new country joins and iirc it took quite a while when China joined to agree their schedules.
I'm really hoping that one country can't block agreements between others within the WTO

Otherwise, the Uk would be at the mercy of any country it has pissed off in its history - they might try to screw out concessions or reparations for what they consider past wrongs.

e.g. Syria, Iran, Iraq, Argentina, Spain (Gibraltar), any ex-colony angry at their former colonial masters, any country angry at being bombed, or even just ignored, Russia or China wanting concessions or policy changes....

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 18:20

< I'm hoping for reassurance that can't happen ?? >

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 18:31

Germany, for example, exports a lot outside the EU, not just inside. No problem.
They produce high quality manufactured goods at the price their customers want

The Uk has had a problem with low productivity - since the late 19th century (!) wrt Germany & the USA.
This is compensated by lower UK wages and longer hours.

I've never understood why competing on even terms in the WTO with Indian & Chinese workers on Indian or Chinese wages & working conditions would cause UK wages to rise.