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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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merrymouse · 05/12/2016 09:15

I am not arguing that ISIS can be overthrown democratically. I am arguing that you can't bomb ideas and beliefs.

Somebody has apparently just walked into a pizza restaurant in America and fired a gun because of some rubbish they read on the Internet.

What do you think would happen to Iranian women if they suddenly decided en masse that they weren't going to be oppressed?

Devilishpyjamas · 05/12/2016 09:28

Pages back, but for those concerned about voting Lib Dem because of the tuition fees debacle can I just drop in that Tim Farron voted against tuition fee rises. Who knows what would have happened had he been in charge at the time.

Just throwing that into the mix.

I'm a Lib Dem supporter & hoping for some sort of alliance at the next election - here it's between Con/Labour (500 majority to Con) with UKIP in 3rd (horrifyingly). If it would potentially make a difference I'd vote solely on the Brexit issue even if that meant voting for someone other than the Lib Dems. Leave area, Tory MP is a remainer - - the only remain wards in the city were in his constituency - will be interesting to see which way he goes as he'll be feeling pressure from Brexiteers & Remainers.

Bananagio · 05/12/2016 09:39

I've missed three pages (3!) overnight and have to get to work, but can someone explain to me how the anglophone press is making such a big anti-establishment deal out of "Italy votes to change absolutely nothing at all".
Absolutely! I have been getting more and more frustrated in the run up to this ref with the Anglophone press hijacking this to suit their narrative. It was a vote regarding the constitution and after Renzi stupidly linked his position to the result it also became a ref on him as PM. There absolutely will be knock on effects in the Eurozone as a result but people on the whole bar Salvini's gang were not voting on Europe. Crucially the No voters were also voting to stay the same rather than chuck all the pieces in the air in the name of change and see where they land. I personally was a Yes voter but No doesn't fill me with dismay as did Brexit and Trump. There was always going to be a general election in the future even though we have done a good job of avoiding them over recent years and the 5* party were always going to have a good chance of victory then. As I have said before on these boards - governments falling and PM's resigning is familiar territory here. The Anglophone press who so often still have a "pizza, mafia, mandolino" stereotypical attitude towards Italy and who only showed interest in what was happening here when Bunga Bunga Berlusca provided titiliating headlines should catch up and report on the real situation and the very real issues Italy is facing and stop talking shit to try and make out that the Italians have gone as batshit crazy as the Italians see certain English speaking countries as being currently. Anecdotal it may be but I have literally met not one person here who thinks that Brexit and the equivalent here is a smart idea. Frustration with Europe absolutely (austerity and refugee crisis), hankering back to when things were affordable under the Lira definitely but thinking that leaving all the this and things being better alone - just No! That is not me speaking from an echo chamber- that includes the guy I buy fruit from, teachers at ds's school, his football coach, the local priest, the guy that came to fix my blocked sink, the taxi driver, the supermarket guy blah blah. All who hear the English in my accent and ask "what ARE you guys doing?" in incredulous tones. Totally unlike the climate pre Brexit when you could hear and feel the Leave momentum everywhere and from what my American friends tell me it felt similar in the states with Trump. (I am sure in the Lega strongholds in the north it feels different but my friends in other parts of Italy say the same as me.)

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 05/12/2016 09:41

Merrymouse - no you can't bomb ideas and beliefs, but you can take out their manpower, weapons, and take back from them the oilfields which made them money.

Back when ISIS was just starting, it would have been easy to take them out. They were disorganised, had less money and resources. Our military believed it could take them out in two weeks via troops and air strikes.

Jeremy Corbyn advocated for ground troops as well as air strikes, because our military said that was the most effective way to get rid of ISIS. That's why he voted against air strikes alone.

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 05/12/2016 09:42

Anyway, apologies for the HUGE derail GrinFlowersWine

harvestmoon32 · 05/12/2016 09:54

Bananagio - I hear you. The Anglo press is clearly looking for "Brexit" analogous angles here. However, there are fundamental issues with the Italian economy which need to be resolved at some point. Political uncertainty is not helpful.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38207384

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 10:00

There is an element of this that is not a derail though. As was pointed out upthread Merkel has been very clear about the importance of those political values the EU countries have in common, and she has walked the walk as well as talked the talk in terms of taking in refugees. One of my reasons for voting remain was that I thought that a strong EU standing up for those values between nationalist Russia and China, and what has been a self serving American superpower with a sense of entitlement and illusions of ideological / cultural supremacy that meant it left these vacuums in the Middle East. Neither Putin or the US can or will solve the world's problems with guns alone. You do need to have respect for the equality of human life whatever your colour, religion, culture, gender, to be humanitarian, in order to approach these issues in a way that finds lasting solutions that actually do result in lasting peace.

howabout · 05/12/2016 10:00

Interesting thoughts bananagio and very much echoed in the 3 minute presse I just watched on Skynews in the UK. However, given that the Renzi reforms were designed to give his government more powers to push through economic restructuring in line with the Eurozone model I wonder if it is somewhat downplaying to say it is not a rejection of the EU, as it stands at least. It certainly has echoes of what Yanis, my favourite Greek economist, is saying about the frustrations in Greece. While Greece is small enough to be dictated to, Italy is not and there is also potential for further pressure for reform from Spain and Portugal. With the UK effectively out of the equation this significantly alters the balance between Germany, France and the Southern Med countries surely?

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 10:05

The Italian no vote was predominantly a young vote - would be interesting to see the split on educated vs uneducated ...

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 10:06

Euro up by the way.

missmoon · 05/12/2016 10:13

Misti interesting re. young vote. Do you know what the rural/urban split is?

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 10:14

Back when ISIS was just starting, it would have been easy to take them out. They were disorganised, had less money and resources. Our military believed it could take them out in two weeks via troops and air strikes.

I think anything is easy with hindsight.

It didn't take much money to persuade somebody to drive a lorry into children in Nice or cut the throat of a priest in Rouen or open fire on people attending a concert in Paris.

However, these terrorist attacks have had a very real effect on French politics and quite deliberately raised the profile of people who see all Muslims as potential terrorists. To bring things back to Brexit, Islamic terrorism has helped nationalist parties to create a them and us narrative where all other countries are suspect.

Ironically, far right nationalism is now, as well as terrorism, a global enterprise that doesn't respect borders.

You fight them by providing a better alternative and appealing to people's humanity. However, that is going to be a monumental struggle in a country where, as said before, the citizens have been bombed and exiled.

howabout · 05/12/2016 10:14

Misti 1.20 is about what I think of as normal for the Euro, so I am off to buy my holiday forex this morning. However I still think there is potential for it to bounce around a lot depending on the A50 case, Italy appointing new PM and Greek bail out talks.

Very worthwhile derail majicfaraway and worth bearing in mind when the constant clamour is that "something must be done". I tend very much towards "first do no harm" in my thinking.

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 10:21

howabout what's normal? Has been between €1.40 and €1.10 in the recent past. The point is that the no vote in Italy hasnt cause the sky to fall down or the euro to collapse. I don't want to relegate the Italian vote to a non-event, but as far as I can tell the only people who are really excited about this are italian political commentators and Brexiters. Everyone else seems to be reacting with a Gallic shrug.

Maybe the markets are wrong to be sanguine about it - wouldn't be the first time. I genuinely don't know.

Peregrina · 05/12/2016 10:23

Our military believed it could take them out in two weeks via troops and air strikes.
Don't our military tend to be overoptimistic? The question would be, and then what?

Bananagio · 05/12/2016 10:25

howabout absolutely there is anti Europe feeling and Europe is blamed for austerity and Italy being left to its own devices re refugee crisis. So that is connected with the rejection of Renzi. What there isn't IMO is the same feeling of wanting out that there is in the U.K. Also Grillo and his Grillini are a hotchpotch of left and right. They may win the next election, they may do a deal with the devil in the form of Salvini to get power. When they actually start having to put meat on the bones re policy, building consensus and delivering it will be interesting to see how long they last. Our 5* mayor in Rome has so far proven herself to be incapable of doing one of the major things she promised to do immediately, namely solving the rubbish problem in Rome. I live in a "good" neighborhood, our streets are filthy, rain means the roads flood due to blocked drains and the rubbish piles up in the street outside the houses. It's a disgrace, its filthy and it just shows me that if she can't get a consensus in local government to sort this embarrassment out in the capital city then I won't hold my breath regarding a government of Grillini and the Lega having the power or ability to make earth shattering changes to the country and its EU membership.

squoosh · 05/12/2016 10:33

I wonder if Farage's promise of a 100,000 strong protest will descend on the Supreme Court today.....

I suspect not.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 11:05

mobile.twitter.com/iainmacintosh/status/805715902893277184

It's a job to know what to think.

She clearly has no clue about London, but then I don't know how much she represents America. Confused

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
Peregrina · 05/12/2016 11:11

I wonder if Farage's promise of a 100,000 strong protest will descend on the Supreme Court today.....

It was called off, I believe. I forget what the reason was but it was apparently nothing to do with the dismal turnout of a couple of hundred people the other week.

MangoMoon · 05/12/2016 11:20

merry Grin

TheBathroomSink · 05/12/2016 11:45

Pere and squoosh

The official reason was they were worried about it being hijacked by the 'far-right', however the announcement was made on the same day as another protest only managed to get about 60 people turn up.

squoosh · 05/12/2016 11:50

Such a relief that Farage managed to convince the 100,000 not to march on London. Must have taken a lot of work on his part to hold them all back.

Grin
iwanttoridemybicycle · 05/12/2016 12:00

Nige is probably too busy searching for Drain the Swamp contestants.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 12:02

"London has gone Islamic" Shock Hmm Grin

Maybe she meant electing a Muslim Mayor - who follows the well-known Islamic doctrine of supporting Equal Marriage, womens' rights, the London Jewish community ....

Unfortunately, such daft Twitters will be circulated within the far-right echo chamber in the USA to become the "new facts"

Maybe they'll believe Farage called off his 100k demo because he would have been forced to wear a burkhini Smile Oh that image in my poor brain !

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