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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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Bolshybookworm · 05/12/2016 06:22

The mess in Afghanistan is a direct result of The USA (via the mujahideen) and USSR fighting over it in the Cold War so I'm not sure that's a great example to use. The fairly atrocious behaviour of both sides paved the way for the taliban.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 06:37

Re: Farage endorsing Hofer, I think he came pretty close to it here:

www.washingtonexaminer.com/nigel-farage-political-revolution-in-uk-usa-is-headed-to-austria/article/2608780

British politician Nigel Farage said on Friday the year of the "political revolution" is not over. The former leader of the UK Independence Party predicted Austria will follow the example of England and America to become the next western country whose citizens stand up to the government.

"On Sunday this week, the Austrians are re-running their presidential election," Farage told Fox News host Sean Hannity on Friday evening. "The president of Austria being the head of state — not with much executive power, but still very important — and I would put my money on the Freedom Party's Mr. [Norbert] Hofer winning that election."

If Hofer is elected, it will be the first time a member of a far-right party has elected a head of state job in a Western European country. Farage, charged with leading the British exodus from the European Union last June, said Hofer "will be calling for Austria to have a referendum on their membership with the European Union," following the example of Britain.

"I see 2016 as the year of a political revolution. Two revolutions, one in the UK, one in the USA," Farage explained. "It's about nation-state democracy, taking back control of our lives and our future direction."

He was certainly linking a Hofer success to Brexit.

However, ironically, the referendum in Italy was about changing the rules that make it so difficult for one party to have effective power, so on the face of it, the result would make it less easy in practical terms for Italy to have a decisive referendum on leaving the EU. The main danger to the EU seems to be pressure on the Euro and Merkel losing an ally.

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 06:39

I've missed three pages (3!) overnight and have to get to work, but can someone explain to me how the anglophone press is making such a big anti-establishment deal out of "Italy votes to change absolutely nothing at all".

Yeah yeah yeah Renzi blah blah blah, but this is Italian politics. Someone else will have their turn on the carousel (and nothing will change).

On this occasion the markets seem to think that it's a bit of a damp squib and I'm inclined to agree. (Plus, no to that particular referendum question was probably the correct answer).

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 06:45

Oh yes, and has anyone else read about the new conspiracy theory being propagated by trump supporters, called pizzagate? It's so weird that I can't work out what they are up in arms about, but they are LITERALLY up in arms - some nutjob just went into a pizza restaurant to "investigate" and started shooting (no deaths thankfully).

It's tempting to say that the real lesson of 2016 is that there are two groups of voters: those with three figure IQs and those without ...

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 06:50

The US armed and trained the Mujahideen. They were their agents. The US also sought to train the insurgents in Syria. This is warfare by covert, cheap means - other (foreign) people's lives are more expendable than American lives and the US chalks up a win. The Taliban was a faction that emerged from Pakistani madrassas into the civil war that filled the vacuum left by the Soviets. Their influences trace their roots back to imperial India, to the Deobandi movement that was inspired by resentment of corrupting British influence. They share much of their philosophy with the current day Saudi Arabian Wahhabis, who fund madrassas and mosques and actively promote their version of Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Before the US and USSR treated Afghanistan as a prize, the British Empire and Imperial Russia played 'The Great Game' (see 'Kim' by Rudyard Kipling) with Afghanistan as the pawn.

Russia has always guarded what it sees as its interests in south and central Asia. The USSR added central Asian republics that were cut loose as it collapsed, but they remain within the orbit of the Russian Federation (Turkmenistan, etc). The US for its part has never hesitated to guard what it sees as its interests in the western hemisphere and even beyond - the Philippines, Cuba, Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Panama have all been treated as vassals and despicable regimes have been installed and supported so that the interests of America could be furthered. Hawaii was Americanised and its monarchy destroyed thanks to the campaigning of American pineapple farming interests.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 07:17

Mathanxiety Putin, or any leader who deliberately slaughters thousands of civilians, deserves to be demonised.

People demonise Blair for blundering into a situation which had the aftermath of thousands dead. Putin cut out the middleman and did it all himself. Intentionally.

We condemn the rise of the far right in Europe, because of what they might do.
Well the fascist Putin has already committed mass murder of civilians. He already tortures & murders dissidents.

I totally condemn IS, but outdoing them in mass murder is not the way to defeat militant Islam.
Mass murder is not ok just because those civilians are Muslim. They are not rats.

Slaughtering Muslims en masse doesn't defeat militant IS; it just causes the survivors to become traumatised, angry & militant. Some will become refugees, to destablise Europe further.
It increases sympathy for extremists among Muslims who have been living in Europe for decades.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 07:20

All countries will pursue their interests
The means to do so should not include mass murder.

If Russia were not almost a superpower, then Putin would be before the ICC, just like war criminals from countries like Serbia.
He's actually killed more people than many leader who have been tried & convicted.
One law for weaker countries; another for the military superpowers

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 07:24

I don't think most Brexiters view electing the far right as taking back control.
I hope they would reject Farage's version of this.

Unfortunately, the Fail seems to be whipping up anger against those "gloating lefties" who celebrated the Austrian defeat of the far right.
Hmm. I'm sure those "lefties" include every Conservative supporter I know

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 07:49

I totally condemn IS, but outdoing them in mass murder is not the way to defeat militant Islam

Completely disagree, and I don't see anyone coming up with a better plan.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 07:51

Italian Northern League leader Matteo Salvini Tweeted:

“Viva Trump, viva Putin, viva la Le Pen e viva la Lega!”

Very clear that the fascists see themselves as a worldwide movement.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2016 07:53

So mass murder is your solution to our "Islam Problem" ?
Nothing more to discuss then

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 07:58

We don't have an 'Islam Problem'. We have an ISIS problem.

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK is to America. It's not the whole of America. It's not representative of the majority of Americans. It's a pimple on the arse of America in fact.

If you can come up with a better solution to the problem of a well trained, well-equipped, completely ruthless army of barbarians with territorial aims that has imposed a rule of terror on the huge population it currently controls and will do more of the same if it is allowed to win, then let's hear it.

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 08:01

Math Why do you credit ISIS as being in any way representative of the Muslim community of the world, anymore than say white supremacists in the US are representative of Christians there or the 969 are representative of Buddhists in South East Asia. There are violent factions and fundamentalism in every religion and culture. Bombing an entire culture and brutally suppressing any chance of a political solution that arises from a country or cultures own cultural roots only results in creating division that such movements thrive on, and a vacuum in civic life that enables them to move in and impose their violent rule on moderate communities, as we saw in Iraq and Libya. Do you really think that bombing Isis into oblivion in Syria and propping up an unpopular dictator is a lasting political solution in the Middle East? It might suit Putin to have Assad in power but it certainly does not suit the Syrian people, now either bombed or fled. And it just means that there is a sticking plaster over one manifestation of a problem that will re-emerge in the other countries of the Middle East and indeed has been exported to the disaffected minorities in the west.

ISIS have no traction in the Uighur and other Muslim communities in China, they simply wish for their culture to be respected and to not be discriminated against in exactly the same way as the Tibetans, Mongolians and other cultural minorities in China. The Chinese are using Muslim fundamentalism as an excuse to brutally suppress a people in a way they could not get away with on the Tibetan plateau because of course you do not get radical nationalist Buddhists Hmm

Castelnaumansions · 05/12/2016 08:02

Really interesting posts, maths et al thanks
Still great news on Austria,though, although, strangely nothing on it on 'Today' programme this morning, strange that!Hmm

TheBathroomSink · 05/12/2016 08:07

Misti - Pizzagate is total David Icke territory, apparently a child abuse ring was being run out of a Washington pizza takeaway, using 'mysterious symbols' on the menu. Beyond bonkers.

As for why the British press are interested in an Italian referendum, it fits into their narrative that 'everything is crazy everywhere', Farage has been bigging up M5S as continuing his good works, and the only thing we really know about the Italian political system is Silvio Berlusconi, so it is fairly easy to paint it as a bit chaotic, even if it's not true.

Plus, distraction technique. Don't ask too many questions about the A50 hearing....

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 08:08

Cross posted. I am glad you accept that ISIS are not representative of Islam. However I do not accept that the only answer to the problem is to bomb them and everyone in their vicinity out of existence before their own brutal and dysfunctional movement was shown up for what it was. That has created the narrative that will enlist more to their underground cause.

Mistigri · 05/12/2016 08:12

math I guess you're not proposing that we barrel-bomb KKK strongholds, however.

Disgusted by the warmongering putin-apologism in here this morning. Think I might take a break.

harvestmoon32 · 05/12/2016 08:29

Misti - why does the Italian referendum matter?

There might be a run on the Italian banks which are overloaded with debt:

see the live feed from the guardian business news:

www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/dec/05/italy-referendum-matteo-renzi-markets-spooked-shares-bonds-eurozone-live

There's also a meeting today to discuss the Greek debt crisis - "Greece must reform or leave the Eurozone, says German minister" - see the end of the link above.

I think this means there is pressure on the euro/eurozone, which was always there as an undercurrent, but the Italian ref result has caused the sticky plaster to fall off.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 08:38

Look at older photos of Turkey and Egypt and you will notice a good many women who are not veiled.

Hijab is still officially banned in many places in Turkey, and many women in Egypt and Turkey don't wear hijab.

A few decades ago it was unusual for Muslim women to wear a veil in the UK. You can argue the toss about whether wearing hijab is a sign of oppression or the freedom to assert your Muslim identity, but muslim women in the UK are not covering their heads because of ISIS.

There is no such thing as personal or political freedom, no human or civil rights in a state dominated by Islamic fundamentalists.

While it may it be possible to keep a check on some of his behaviour for a while, Assad isn't offering these things either. It might be better to live in Assad's Syria than under ISIS, but he originally created the conditions that allowed ISIS to gain a foot hold. Assuming the present crisis is somehow declared to be over, what happens next - will he be more suppressive?

But radical Islam must be defeated. It really is a case of Them or Us. And bombing is the way to go about making sure it is Us.

Isn't radical Islam a little more complicated than ISIS?
It may be the only possible move at the moment is to allow Russia to bomb Syria, but 'radical Islam' is an idea. It isn't something that can be bombed.

Russia has it's own agenda which sometimes aligns with the west and sometimes doesn't. Putin certainly doesn't share all Merkel's values of

"democracy, freedom and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political views".

Castelnaumansions · 05/12/2016 08:42

Introducing Mr Padoan, to replace Renzi?
www.politico.eu/article/pier-carlo-padoan-italys-finance-minister/
Antonello Guerrera ‏@antoguerrera

And Padoan as PM would also be the best choice to keep markets calm after Renzi flop. And EU look at him as a serious partner
Antonello Guerrera ‏@antoguerrera

That is very likely. He is the easier choice after Renzi, also because he might form a new government with the same majority

Castelnaumansions · 05/12/2016 08:46

Ferdinando Giugliano ‏@FerdiGiugliano

Italian banks regaining composure. Possible that, in spite of the initial shock, a "No" was largely priced in. Still, big challenges ahead.
But, watch this result being used by the ukips today to shout at judges.

merrymouse · 05/12/2016 08:47

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK is to America.

Except that America has friendly relations with countries like the UEA where homosexuality can be a capital offence and people can be stoned to death for adultery. Women aren't allowed in sports stadiums in Iran, but Iran is fighting ISIL.

Also agree with Mistigri - I don't think anybody is planning to bomb the KKK?

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 05/12/2016 09:06

Merrymouse - the difference between the KKK and ISIS is that whilst both abhorrent, the KKK are not killing people en masse if they refuse to obey ISIS and the caliphate.

ISIS will never be overthrown democratically. That is the point of jihad. Fight to the death. The mistake the West and Russia made was having indiscriminate air strikes which resulted in so many civilian casualties.

If ground forces had been used a long time ago, in concurrence with the first air strikes, then ISIS would have been targeted properly, reducing civilian deaths. If we weren't willing to commit ground forces, then we should not have supported air strikes.

Assad is terrible, but at the moment, it boils down to a choice between Assad and ISIS, and our actions over there have so far served to cause displacement of millions and radicalisation of more people to ISIS. Terrible though it is, we need to support Assad to get rid of ISIS and then deal with him via diplomacy.

And we need to learn to stop fighting proxy wars in future which cause political vacuums for radicalisation to fill.

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 05/12/2016 09:07
  • refuse to support the KKK and their non-existent caliphate.