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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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NotDavidTennant · 04/12/2016 22:35

As far as I can see, the only practical consequence of this referendum is that Italy will most likely get a new government. But the Italian system is such that governments come and go all the time and the world has always still turned, so not sure why it will be different this time. People are trying to shoehorn this into being Brexit part 2, but I can't see how this will lead to any significant impact on the EU.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2016 22:37

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
In simple terms? It's VERY complicated.

George Magnus ‏@georgemagnus1
The simple bit is less abt const reform than stopping capital flight and ensuring insolvent banks can survive. Tough benchmark

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Indeed. Especially given eurozone bank bailout rules, which are not good for Italy.

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Euro slips below $1.06 in Asian markets. Nothing dramatic -- so far!

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Markets supposed to have priced in Italian NO vote but € down almost 1% against $ and Italian bond yields rising.

Antonello Guerrera ‏@antoguerrera
29. It gets worse and worse for Renzi. 3rd exit poll RAI: YES 39-43%, NO 57-61%

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Now the real results coming in not just exit polls and they too point to major Renzi defeat.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
62% No, 38% Yes : actual first 90k votes

OP posts:
squoosh · 04/12/2016 22:39

Doesn't Italy have a new PM every 2 or 3 years?

I read today that they've had 63 PMs in the past 70 years!

SwedishEdith · 04/12/2016 22:41

Ha ha, I was just counting them on wiki.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/12/2016 22:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lalalonglegs · 04/12/2016 22:49

Italy has historically had a lot of governments but the problem is (this time) that Renzi was seen as a moderniser and was keen to drag Italy's many nationalised industries etc into the 21st century. This made him very popular in Brussels especially as Italy's economy is really fragile and it needs a steady hand at the rudder which was how Renzi was perceived by many. However, it did not do much for him at home.

So, we now have the problem that while Renzi could well be replaced by a cabinet colleague (Italy is pretty good at stitching up these things, Renzi had only ever been mayor of Florence before he was anointed PM), this sort of fix will likely only cause resentment to grow among large sections of the electorate and fuel the fire of parties such as Lega Nord (actual fascists) and the Five Star Movement (populist loose cannons) in time for general elections that will have to happen in the first half of 2018, if not before.

More immediately, there is also a danger that there could be a run on Italian banks that have, for years, been trying to shore up the many bad loans that have been made since the mid-1990s. If particularly vulnerable banks such as Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena topple then it could be a mini-2008 all over again. Economists disagree on how likely this is to happen but my feeling is that once the markets start to smell blood...

mathanxiety · 04/12/2016 22:53

BigChoc -
There is absolutely no way Russia is going to gang up with anyone against China. Russia and China have developed close ties that are important to both.

The context in which the Chechen wars were fought was one similar to the current struggle against ISIS. Militant Islam is the common denominator. Unless you find the prospect of militant Islamic rogue states in the Caucasus appealing, you have to support the alternative.

The Russian republic itself has a significant Muslim minority and a long history all the way back to the Tsars of conflict between Christian and Muslim forces, and there several Muslim-dominated Caucasian republics in the federation. Whether anyone likes the very idea of Russia or not, maintaining the integrity of the Russian Federation is extremely important because the alternative is a collection of relatively weak states, many of which would be low hanging fruit for radical Islam. Allowing radical Islam a launching pad in Chechnya or any other Muslim-dominated federated republic from which to chip away at the Caucasus or at the Russian republic itself would therefore be unthinkable.

The very close proximity of radical, fundamentalist (call it whatever you wish) Islam changes everything for Russia.

Sometimes you have to pick your poison.

The fact remains that the way the media and entertainment industry have demonised Russia in general and in particular Putin is a matter of grave concern, and imo it behoves consumers to pay attention to a trend that is laid on so thick.

WrongTrouser · 04/12/2016 22:56

If exit polls correct, it's 1 win 1 loss for forces of populism

Would someone be able to explain to me the meaning of populism in this context? It's been used elsewhere on this thread and I am not quite sure what the meaning is. I have read a couple of definitions and it seems a pretty wide concept so any clarification welcome.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/12/2016 22:58

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Castelnaumansions · 04/12/2016 22:58

What are you drivelling about my little tartan numpty? Go to bed
Andrew Neil added,
Martin M Laidlaw @MMLaidlaw
Is this another '@afneil acts shocked as another nation soundly rejects Globalist NeoLiberalism' episode?
funny man snit on twitter Grin

Motheroffourdragons · 04/12/2016 23:01

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Melassa · 04/12/2016 23:02

GE not that likely. Technocratic govt appointed by Mattarella just as likely at present.

UK people reading too much in the vote, apart from Salvini and a few frothers no one wants out of the EU in Italy. Even the right voting part of my family think it would be disaster (as thus far proved by the Brexit antics). Also the Italian economy would never recover, and the Italians know it. All the M5S posturing about coming out if the euro is just that, no one in their party has demonstrated any expertise in anything required for running a country.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/12/2016 23:05

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SwedishEdith · 04/12/2016 23:07

Just reading about Beppe Grillo - has a manslaughter conviction so is banned from standing for public office.

Melassa · 04/12/2016 23:11

And judging from some on my FB feed, it was just a vote to get rid of Renzi and for many the thought processes didn't go beyond that. It was anti Renzi rather than pro something else.

NotDavidTennant · 04/12/2016 23:20

Unless you find the prospect of militant Islamic rogue states in the Caucasus appealing, you have to support the alternative.

Well no, you don't actually. The options aren't restricted to "support radical Islam" or "support the Russians indiscriminately bombing the shit out of everything that moves".

TuckersBadLuck · 04/12/2016 23:32

I'm too tired to deal with this one. Some twat's just thrown it at me as an example of the BAD EU. I'm too drained to properly understand what the issue is, let alone rebuke it. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/polish-firms-employing-north-korean-slave-labourers-benefit-from/

TuckersBadLuck · 04/12/2016 23:35

I meant to ask for some mindpower to explain what that's all about to me.

Koreans in Poland is a bit outside my field of focus. Grin Confused

SwedishEdith · 05/12/2016 00:03

Alessio Bragadini ‏@abragad 13m13 minutes ago
@faisalislam Renzi's government will go down as 4th-longest in the history of the Republic (only Berlusconi and Craxi better)

SwedishEdith · 05/12/2016 00:07

And now NZ's PM has resigned!

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 00:08

Unless you find the prospect of militant Islamic rogue states in the Caucasus appealing, you have to support the alternative.

Well no, you don't actually. The options aren't restricted to "support radical Islam" or "support the Russians indiscriminately bombing the shit out of everything that moves"

But radical Islam must be defeated. It really is a case of Them or Us. And bombing is the way to go about making sure it is Us.

In the case of Russia vs radical Islam (which I was posting about) Russia sent a message to radical Islam to not even think about incursion into the Russian Federation.

At the end of the disastrous Yeltsin years the Russian Federation was in such a precarious position that complete disintegration was a possibility because of the breakdown of the rule of law, the lack of order, and economic catastrophe. The threat of radical Islam in Chechnya simply had to be wiped out. The threat to the entire federation was a real one.

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 00:20

Math the "alternative" has helped fuel radical Islam. I can't comment in much detail on Russia but certainly it is very evident in the Middle East that western intervention has only made matters worse. China is in severe danger of creating a problem for itself amongst the moderate Asian Muslim communities such as the Uighurs that fall inside it's borders. These are not communities that have any predisposition to radical Islam, they have women leaders for instance, and are actually fundamentally matriarchal cultures. Are the communities in Central Asia that different?

I think regarding it as a them and us problem is actually very dangerous in the context of those Muslim communities.

TuckersBadLuck · 05/12/2016 00:45

I'me a bit gutted as well that I've not found any evidence that "Farage has also apparently endorsed Hofer".

It's my own fault for not fact-checking I suppose, but once the argument is undermined it;'s undermined. Sad

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 02:26

Radical Islam has more than enough fuel of its own. To suggest that bombing or otherwise fighting it would make a difference in its ambitions is patronising and not very realistic. These people are not poor colonised natives doing the only thing they can in a situation they did not create. In this latest round radical Islam took the fight to the west initially, not the other way round.

Western intervention in the middle east - yes, some of the intervention has made matters a lot worse than they could have been. The invasion of Iraq was a massive mistake, immoral, illegal, and it weakened Iraq almost fatally (the US, France and UK are now dealing with ISIS there) and has had repercussions in Syria that Russia is now dealing with. The other intervention that Russia is now dealing with is the monumentally stupid American encouragement of insurgency against Assad in a region and at a time where ISIS is ready and willing to exploit weakness. This encouragement of forces dedicated to deposing Assad has also left Israel wondering who its friends are.

Syria cannot fall to non-ISIS insurgents or to ISIS. In the aftermath of any destruction of Assad and the Syrian army - the only other possible winners of any civil war in Syria are ISIS or Assad; ISIS would make mince meat of anyone but the Russian AF. They almost destroyed the Syrian army, which lost territory steadily until Russia intervened.

An important reason to support an Assad victory is that only Assad can be trusted not to attack Israel and risk escalation of the current conflict to nuclear level. While Assad is no friend of Israel's and vice versa, Syria and Israel had an uneasy truce. Israel would in the end prefer Assad over an ISIS state/caliphate in Syria.

US-Israeli relations have suffered under Obama for many reasons. Netanyahu allowed himself to be sucked into the Tea Party conflict with the President, addressed Congress against Obama's wishes, allowed the GOP to use Israel for party political purposes, forced the US to deal with Iran on the back foot, continued to permit settlements, went to war with Hamas in Gaza, etc., etc. It has been very ugly. The net result is an increase in Israeli watchfulness.

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 02:47

Afghanistan in the 70s was a place where women wore western dress, girls went to school, women went to university and worked for income outside the home.

Look at older photos of Turkey and Egypt and you will notice a good many women who are not veiled. Fundamentalism has crept into both of those societies. In Egypt it almost got a strong foothold in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood. Turkey - a situation that is fluid but leaning to more acceptance of fundamentalism and rejection of more cosmopolitan influences, under a leader who is playing too confidently with fire.

Syria and Iraq were both moderate Muslim societies. Women were not subject to the strict interpretation of Islam that you find in fundamentalist societies. Both had Christian minorities. The Christians have been slaughtered. Women have been enslaved. Children have been publicly executed. A barbaric regime has destroyed even ancient monuments because they offend its religion. Destroying monuments and all the other acts also signal the level of fanaticism enemies of ISIS are up against.

No moderate Muslim society can survive a physical takeover by ISIS. A state does not need to have a predisposition to fundamentalism for it to be taken over by ISIS, or any other group that is well armed, well trained, motivated by fanaticism, and prepared to do whatever it takes to win. ISIS is not interested in gradual persuasion. This is what jihad is. If ISIS threatens China by means of encouraging Uighur rebellion against Beijing, then ISIS will suffer a military response.

We know what Nazism and Stalinism and the French Directory looked like. We know how those regimes came to power and held onto it - by a rule of terror. ISIS is the same. There is no such thing as personal or political freedom, no human or civil rights in a state dominated by Islamic fundamentalists. People in conquered territory may disagree with ISIS, with fundamentalism, etc. but they dare not openly defy an Islamic fundamentalist government, which is by definition a totalitarian one.

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