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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 03/12/2016 21:23

COMING UP THIS WEEK

Jeremy Corbyn to do something re:Brexit!?!

Do we get all excited and then it turns out he didn't really say that or it was a misquote or is this real?!

news.sky.com/story/labours-amendments-likely-to-delay-article-50-10681748?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Labour's Brexit bill amendments likely to delay Article 50
Jeremy Corbyn's promise of a proposed changed to the Government's Brexit bill could also open up amendments in the Lords.

In a week when the Government appeared to be signalling a softer flavour of Brexit, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has clarified some of Labour's plans - for the first time confirming the Opposition will seek to amend a likely Article 50 Bill being prepared by Government.

Speaking to me on the fringes of the conference of European left-wing leaders, Mr Corbyn volunteered the position.

It is an important detail, presuming the failure of the Government's Supreme Court Appeal next week.

The Labour leader was at pains to say it was not about stopping Brexit, as had been suggested by his predecessor Tony Blair.

"You can't say topeople 'you vote, you take the decision. Sorry, you've made the wrong decision.You'vegot to take it again'."

But nor did he absolutely rule out a possible further referendum on exit terms, a policy which was passed at Labour Party Conference in September.

Re: Article 50.

There are ten statements for the challengers that the government has to defend. They have four arguments to their case.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
UK government will have to win on every single point to retain the prerogative power - whilst those challenging the prerogative, just one.

Brexit Opportunities

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
Eurostar's submission to Parliamentary inquiry into Brexit, an extract.

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
OP posts:
Castelnaumansions · 03/12/2016 21:58

Thank you red, depressing, but thanks.

Corcory · 03/12/2016 22:51

Just to be clear Red. The cornflower is the national flower of Germany and is worn by right wing Austrians to mark their political allegiance with Germany. It is not a Nazi symbol.
It is also the French equivalent of our poppy and is worn there on Armistice day so I hardly think they would be very happy to wear if it was a Nazi symbol.

Mistigri · 03/12/2016 23:18

Sorry, Corcory, you're wrong. It's a symbol historically linked with nazi sympathisers in Austria. It appears that Hofer and his gang of neofascists have advised supporters not to wear it during the election process because everyone knows exactly what it means, and it might put some people off voting for him.

TuckersBadLuck · 03/12/2016 23:19

My googling led to the same sort of conclusion Corcory. I really don't know enough about Austria to know whether the cornflower is a harmless national(ist) symbol or something more sinister.

The English flag has been known to be hijacked by various elements for their own means after all.

And anyway if it's a symbol of 'nationalism', then so what? Nationalism isn't synonymous with Nazism or Fascism after all.

I've got European Jewish ancestry and general liberal ideals and I am quite worried about the way things are looking, but I don't think we can call Nazi on the evidence of a sodding flower.

TuckersBadLuck · 03/12/2016 23:22

Mistigri - it's also just linked to Germanic identity, it's used in other contexts apparently. Am I an EDL supporter If I've got an English flag showing somewhere?

Corcory · 03/12/2016 23:25

Here here Tucker. Pray tell me Misti where you get your information?

A nationalist symbol does not make a Nazi symbol. I find it very very poor when people start calling people things like Nazis just because they have apparently endorsed someone who wears a certain flower!

I am not a lover of Farage by the way.

Castelnaumansions · 03/12/2016 23:36

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36342362
The beautiful flower with an ugly past

Peregrina · 04/12/2016 00:07

A swastika was and is, an ancient Hindu symbol denoting good fortune, but it was appropriated by the Nazis, which is how most of us in Europe now think of it.

Similarly, the US pledge of allegiance used to require a salute similar to the Nazi salute, and it no longer does.

So yes, National symbols can be misappropriated - which is more or less what is happening with the cross of St George.

Mistigri · 04/12/2016 06:38

Symbols have a context. If you or I wore a cornflower, it would have little meaning because it would be out of context - it is not a symbol that has acquired universal political significance like the swastika.

However, if a member of a political that was founded by actual Nazis wears a symbol that was used as an underground symbol of support for the Nazis then you can bet your bottom dollar that it has meaning!

Mistigri · 04/12/2016 06:39

That should read "member of a political party that was founded by actual Nazis"

Mistigri · 04/12/2016 06:48

I should say here that I am the very last person who thinks that we should jump to take offence unnecessarily, especially not over a flower.

Indeed, if Hofer and his neofascist pals want to wear blue flowers, they should go ahead and do so. Because it helps the rest of us discern the real identify of people who are members of what is probably the only active political party left in Europe with genuine Nazi roots (go and read some history) and who think it is nevertheless fine and dandy to appropriate a symbol associated in Austria with supporters of the Nazis.

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 07:41

It was impossible to know whether the conversation with Tsai reflected the incoming president’s incompetence or, in fact, heralded the arrival of a major strategic shift in US policy the region.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/04/donald-trump-taiwan-call-exposes-inexperience-china-state-media-say

Also, if Trump is inexperienced, was Trump duped by Taiwan as China suggest, acting on his own initiative, or being influenced by somebody else with their own agenda?

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 08:01

Farage is doing everything he can to associate Brexit with far right nationalism, and with their weak response to critiscisms of judges and dislike of 'experts', the government is doing little to stand up to him.

I know they want to grab the UKIP vote, but they are letting Farage and the Daily Mail define Brexit.

At the moment the message to the 48% is that yes, Brexit is every bit as bad as you thought it would be when Farage stood infront of that poster, and we have no clue what we are doing.

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 08:25

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2016/12/4/13831900/donald-trump-snl-tweet?client=safari

Trump reminds the world to watch the latest SNL Trump sketch.

mathanxiety · 04/12/2016 09:02

Further to Castelnaumansions link from the New Yorker.

theintercept.com/2016/11/26/washington-post-disgracefully-promotes-a-mccarthyite-blacklist-from-a-new-hidden-and-very-shady-group/

Far too many Americans apparently had their geopolitical mindset formed by the cartoon 'Rocky and Bullwinkle'.

It really is Joe McCarthy all over again in the US. From respectable media to TV shows, action dramas, political soaps, Russia is the bogeyman.

From this article:
"Even more disturbing than the Post’s shoddy journalism in this instance is the broader trend in which any wild conspiracy theory or McCarthyite attack is now permitted in U.S. discourse as long as it involves Russia and Putin — just as was true in the 1950s when stories of how the Russians were poisoning the U.S. water supply or infiltrating American institutions were commonplace. Any anti-Russia story was — and is — instantly vested with credibility, while anyone questioning its veracity or evidentiary basis is subject to attacks on their loyalties or, at best, vilified as “useful idiots.”

Two of the most discredited reports from the election season illustrate the point: a Slate article claiming that a private server had been located linking the Trump Organization and a Russian bank (which, like the current Post story, had been shopped around and rejected by multiple media outlets) and a completely deranged rant by Newsweek’s Kurt Eichenwald claiming that Putin had ordered emails in the WikiLeaks release to be doctored — both of which were uncritically shared and tweeted by hundreds of journalists to tens of thousands of people, if not more.

The Post itself — now posing as a warrior against “fake news” — published an article in September that treated with great seriousness the claim that Hillary Clinton collapsed on 9/11 Day because she was poisoned by Putin. And that’s to say nothing of the paper’s disgraceful history of convincing Americans that Saddam was building non-existent nuclear weapons and had cultivated a vibrant alliance with al Qaeda. As is so often the case, those who mostly loudly warn of “fake news” from others are themselves the most aggressive disseminators of it.

Indeed, what happened here is the essence of fake news. The Post story served the agendas of many factions: those who want to believe Putin stole the election from Hillary Clinton; those who want to believe that the internet and social media are a grave menace that needs to be controlled, in contrast to the objective truth that reliable old media outlets once issued; those who want a resurrection of the Cold War. So those who saw tweets and Facebook posts promoting this Post story instantly clicked and shared and promoted the story without an iota of critical thought or examination of whether the claims were true, because they wanted the claims to be true. That behavior included countless journalists."

It is quite disturbing to see the eagerness with which anything and everything anti-Russian is lapped up and the comprehensive and actually relentless nature of the targeting that goes on across all media and entertainment.

I am glad to see some journalists smelling a huge rat here.

It is Russia today but who will be the target tomorrow?

We think we've learned lessons from the past but I am not so sure.

Castelnaumansions · 04/12/2016 09:12

Nationalism is such a dangerous opiate for the masses. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' wrote S Johnson. It gives me the creeps. Always has, in all its forms. Took many 'nations' and peoples to defeat the housepainter in 1945.
btw Shakespeare(industry of which is worth millions to economy), son of Norman/foreign and Catholic (terrorist in some of his era) lineage could've ended up a refugee as well as being a victim of homophobic and race crime for his eclectic taste in lovers.
He wrote this for Thomas More character :
"Imagine that you see the wretched strangers,
Their babies at their backs and their poor luggage,
Plodding to the ports and coasts for transportation,
And that you sit as kings in your desires,
Authority quite silent by your brawl,
And you in ruff of your opinions clothed;
What had you got? I’ll tell you: you had taught
How insolence and strong hand should prevail,
How order should be quelled;"

I think the newly rediscovered ability to 'other' refugees in camps and those in godawful immigrant detention centres ( hello Serco) only miles from our houses, is a dreadful discovery. People are re learning how to act out psychopathy. Look at May's behaviour as Home Secretary. She has given state approval to the prevailing of insolence and the strong hand.

Castelnaumansions · 04/12/2016 09:40

'I am glad to see some journalists smelling a huge rat here.' agreed maths
Time for us to use our 'filter bubble' as Will Self called it. But has anyone noticed that the BBC has become like what I remember Chinese state tv was in the 1990s repeating that production is up and everyone is happy while attacking 'enemies of the people'?

NotDavidTennant · 04/12/2016 09:57

No, I haven't noticed that about the BBC at all. Do you have examples?

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 10:02

I am still hearing in RL that the BBC is a nest of left wing liberals telling anti Brexit lies on behalf of Remoaners.

Maybe it depends on your point of view?

whatwouldrondo · 04/12/2016 10:27

I think the BBC is so running scared of Tories accusing it of being full of left wing lefties and what that might lead to that they have their knickers in a twist. So in the interests of "balance" it has become perfectly acceptable to field in a debate about the impact of Brexit on the financial services industry, a representative of the bankers association on one side who was able to quote the specific plans of his members and the numbers attached , and on the other a tax excile billionaire and prominent Leave campaign funder on a feed from the Channel Islands prattling on about how it will all be OK because we will be free of the yoke of regulation so he can make a few more billions from money laundering and dealing with dodgy oligarchs and corrupt Asian officials . At no point in the debate was he challenged on actually quantifying these supposed benefits or on the evident risks of deregulation (and the reasons they were negotiated with the City in the first place)

I have stopped watching Question Time because I am fed up with it giving politicians like Farage or Daily Mail columnists a voice out of all proportion
to their actual political mandate. I might add I know a fair few Leave voters who were also fed up with Farage being given so much airtime and the implication that he in any way represented their reasons for voting that way.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2016 10:54

Thanks for the election expenses link, Castel
It's surprising Labour haven't made more of it - iirc Labour were fined 20k for not supplying some invoices, but otherwise don't seem to have anything similar to worry about.

The scandal could be an unexploded bomb for TM:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/judge-says-nigel-farages-defeat-by-tories-could-be-ruled-void-ov/
"Magistrates granted Kent Police an extra 12 months to investigate the claims during a hearing at Folkestone Magistrates' Court"

and it's expanded to include her chief of staff at No 10:
www.channel4.com/news/pms-chief-of-staff-drawn-into-election-expenses-scandal

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 11:02

The Question Time guests do seem to be particularly bad at the moment.

However, isn't this part of a wider problem of false equivalency that extends beyond politics?

It also happens in science reporting - as long as there are two opposing points of view, they are both given equal air space, whether or not the claims are backed up by equally rigorous testing and research.

Reporters have always looked for interesting characters, fodder for opinion pieces and eye catching headlines. The problem seems to be getting worse now there is so much competition, but it isn't new.

How much is the news driven by political bias, and how much by the need for readers and viewers?

NotDavidTennant · 04/12/2016 11:10

Standards in journalism have declined in general over the last couple of decades. The BBC has been affected by this I'm sure, but probably no more so than any of the rest of the media.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2016 11:11

Russia is currently one of my "bogeymen" because Putin is a neofascist who is supporting the rise of the far right, like Le Pen, across Europe.

He also ruthlessly slaughters civilians to win his various wars, e.g. Chechnya.
"In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth"
www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/opinion/putin-in-syria-chechnya-all-over-again.html?_r=0

He tortures & murders his political critics, at home and abroad.
time.com/putin-secret-agents/

I don't want a war with Russia, but I also don't want to whitewash what Russia - in particular Putin - are doing.
I also don't want to see the USA & Russia ganging up against China, that's dangerous.