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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2016 09:15

More lowlights to come in US politics I fear.
People worry about how awful Trump will be, but the Vice President-elect Mike Pence sounds seriously nasty too ...

While governor of Indiana, he tried to pass a law forcing women who suffered miscarriages to pay for full "foetal funerals" (as part of an anti abortion law package)

Castelnaumansions · 03/12/2016 09:27

time.com/4589339/donald-trump-mattis-1947-law/
Possible challenge to mattis appointment which was announced at a rally.
So far, this 'government by trolling' is working to a certain extent.
www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-propaganda-about-russian-propaganda
And this on who's really saying what.

Castelnaumansions · 03/12/2016 09:38

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/02/donald-trump-calls-taiwans-president-tsai-ing-wen-risking-diplomatic/

Wonder how long he/we will get away privileged idiocy. I suppose the good thing about england and america having such a rancid history of appropriation and colonisation is that other nations are not surprised by their current behaviour.

MsHooliesCardigan · 03/12/2016 09:48

Annie I loved that article, especially the 'classic fork in the road' between becoming an eco warrior or Tory MP for Richmond Park Grin

Kaija · 03/12/2016 10:00

Yes that Marina Hyde article is brilliant - like all her others lately. She has been one of the few bright spots in this horrific year.

"It is fair to say that Zac Goldsmith has always been a rebel very much in the “self-styled” category. “In 10 years’ time,” he mused in 2000, “I might be an eco-terrorist. But I’ll take the most effective path, whatever that is.” Mmm. You might be an eco-terrorist. But as it turns out, you’re going to be a Tory MP for Richmond Park. It’s that classic fork in the road, isn’t it? A bit like when Chuck D could either have ended up in Public Enemy or as an accountancy trainee at PricewaterhouseCoopers."

Grin
BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2016 10:13


Donald J. Trumpp*
–*
*

Verified accountt*
@realDonaldTrump

"The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

Does he really believe that ?
I'm undecided whether I'd prefer he was just saying that to pander to the hard right, or whether he genuinely believes believes the fantasies he spouts

He seems to Twitters 24/7, so he probably won't have much time to actually do anything as Prez. However that just means the neofascist team he appointed will run the country. Not encouraging.

HPFA · 03/12/2016 12:52

Earlier in the thread there were people complaining about not getting replies from Nicola Blackwood. Well, I got one about three months after writing the letter, so there is hope! She was basically touting the government line but I suspect privately aware that it was garbage - it wasn't about Brexit so not entirely relevant to the thread.

Peregrina · 03/12/2016 13:01

Well done. I am still awaiting my replies from Nicola Blackwood. 4 months now...... She always touts the Government line. I have come to the conclusion that she is now a clone.

RBeer · 03/12/2016 14:41

About Trump and his musings; I read recently about those who do and don't support him. The former take what he says seriously but not literally, the latter literally but not serious.
In order to make sense of this new alt-right World I take now whatever they say seriously but not literally. Only way to remain same these days.

howabout · 03/12/2016 15:15

Love that article merry especially the extrapolation to 135 LD MPs by Christmas Grin

Looking forwards to the Stephen Phillips by election to see if UKIP increase their vote share or if the Tory candidate is deemed sufficiently Brexit minded. About to google the likely impact on the LD future predictions.

merrymouse · 03/12/2016 17:14

Re that article, I think it's certainly possible to overstate what the Richmond Park by-election means in electoral terms for the rest of the country, but I don't think it's a good thing that 6 months after the referendum, it clearly hasn't been possible to convince a constituency where about 2/3 of the population have degrees that the government know what they are doing on Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/oct/19/educated-degree-qualification-constituency-data

merrymouse · 03/12/2016 17:15

And this was a constituency that apoarently 18 months ago loved the conservatives.

howabout · 03/12/2016 17:26

Or as the link suggests, given the increasing divisions over the last 3 years that privilege begets privilege and increasing ghettoisation of the "educated" leads to narrow minded thinking.

One of the CoE Bishops is quoted as making this point in the Times today. He accuses the Church of retreating to middle class enclaves and being more concerned with preserving liberal elite values than increasing levels of social deprivation which they never engage with.

merrymouse · 03/12/2016 17:46

As I said before, one of the striking things about Richmond Park compared with other parts of the country is that (like many parts of London) so many people have moved there from far away. People live there because jobs tend to be concentrated in London, and it is very green. I don't disagree that privilege begets privilege, but people who live in Richmond Park come from all over the country and all over the world.

The boundaries of Richmond Park may have been carefully drawn to exclude some big estates, but if you live there your children will go to school with children from those estates and, if you work locally, you will work with people who live there.

More than bankers, people in Richmond Park are likely to work at a relatively high level in business or government or be lawyers or journalists or scientists or healthcare workers.

Societies that try to write off the opinions of educated people tend to end badly.

merrymouse · 03/12/2016 17:48

And I completely recognise that some people in SW London don't know their arses from their elbows, but they aren't necessarily the best educated (Zac and Ben...?) and they don't represent everybody.

HyacinthFuckit · 03/12/2016 17:49

Oh of course you can overstate it, primarily it's useful as an example of a strongly Remain and strongly Conservative leaning seat. Most constituencies in the country don't fit into that bracket, and many are neither of those things. Enough do to make it very interesting in the context of knife edge majorities both in Parliament and in the referendum, though. Which presumably is at least part of the reason for some of the attempts at minimisation we've seen from various sources.

Mistigri · 03/12/2016 17:53

People forget how diverse most of London is. There are a lot of rich people, but also concentrations of poverty that rival (say) parts of the north east - and many people in between who might look well off on paper but who are firmly in the "just managing" category after commuting and housing costs.

HPFA · 03/12/2016 18:07

A day later and I still feel very happy about the result!! Theresa May has been acting as if the Tories were elected on a UKIP manifesto. This should give her pause for thought and more moderate Tories should now have more influence. Plus it's going to give more people hope and energy that the drift to a more nasty society is not inevitable.

Peregrina · 03/12/2016 18:54

He accuses the Church of retreating to middle class enclaves and being more concerned with preserving liberal elite values than increasing levels of social deprivation which they never engage with.

Has he communicated this to Theresa May? She is in a position to do something about it, but so far she's been all talk, and no action.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2016 18:56

In the past when conservatives lost GEs, it was usually because the Liberals increased their vote, often not winning the seat themselves, but enabling Labour to do so.

So it used to be that a Liberal revival was bad news for Tories, whereas a Liberal collapse often propelled Tories into government
Like in 2015.

Past byelections have created many false dawns for the Liberal Party with their hopes dashed at the following GE.

It will be very interesting to see in the next GE whether opinions on Brexit remain sufficiently strong to cause more than a small % of voters to switch from their usual party, whether to Liberals or to UKIP.
Also whether UKIP implode after all their leadership chaos, or manage to retain the "Angry Vote"

I wonder too if the gov majority, now only 10, will last until 2020.

Question:
What happened with the election expenses police enquiry that involved iirc about 20 Conservative seats ?
Did I miss an announcement that the election law hadn't been broken, or is that still ongoing ?

Peregrina · 03/12/2016 19:05

It will be interesting to see whether the LibDems pick up many of the 'soft Tory' votes i.e. the ones who are absolutely horrified about the party's lurch to the extreme right. It's most definitely not what a lot of Tories vote for. They could vote UKIP and be done with it, if that's what they wanted.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2016 19:09

I've read articles by social commentators in the USA, who found that the middle classes and the wealthy overwhelmingly marry those they meet at uni, or later professionally or socially.
This has been occurring for 2-3 generations
Socialising and housing are now far more separated according to income than for many decades.

So in the USA at least, this has already isolated the middle / upper class from real contact with those on lower incomes and what they are experiencing.

Like an income / wealth apartheid. Similar tendency in the UK, maybe ?

However, those in the UK who most harshly criticise people on benefits tend to be only a little better off than those they resent so much.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2016 19:27

Yes, the Tories used to have to tack to their left, to avoid losing Tory voters on the left to the Liberals.
That was what mostly kept them under a coy figleaf of the Welfare State.
To regain power, they had to stop selecting leaders like IDS from their Evil Bastard / Swivel-Eyed wing.

In recent years, they have been more worried about losing voters from their right to UKIP.
So they may feel able / pushed to go all out for rolling back the state, survival of the fittest, minimal safety net for those not equipped to survive well.

Since noone put a stake through the heart of IDS (probalbly couldn't find any heart) he has risen from the political dead and may yet gore TM badly.

I wonder if the Tory wonks have quantified the effects of tacking left / right on their overall number of seats at a future GE - which may be quite different to the effect on their vote %
And would the new constituency boundaries change the relative importance of tacking left / right ?

Castelnaumansions · 03/12/2016 19:47

^What happened with the election expenses police enquiry that involved iirc about 20 Conservative seats ?
Did I miss an announcement that the election law hadn't been broken, or is that still ongoing ?^
here's the link BCF and Michael Crick on Channel 4 is good to follow.
twitter.com/hashtag/electionexpenses?lang=en