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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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howabout · 02/12/2016 16:23

lala I think it may well only be TF and the LDs who characterise leavers and remainers in those terms. Back in the real World I think there is quite a broad middle ground with many reluctant remainers and reluctant brexiters. Of course if TF and his calls for a 2nd referendum encourage the EU to take a no compromise line as they did with DC then the potential for common sense diminishes and TF may well find he unites the country against him and significantly hardens the terms of any deal - the exact opposite of what he purports to be aiming for.

Sector by sector trade deals and cooperation without political integration are exactly what Brexit is about imho. I don't know any remainer who is a great fan of political integration but I may be wrong in assuming there are very few true Europhiles - the Kinnicks excepting.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 16:37

Apart from LibDems, Greens and SNP, who else clearly supports a Remain vote? You can't rely on many Labour or Tory MPs at present. Most of us don't have the option of supporting a Green candidate with any realistic chance, and we are not in Scotland so can't support the SNP.

PattyPenguin · 02/12/2016 16:38

Even if the EU were willing to accept any sector-by-sector arrangements (and that's a big if) I'm willing to be it would only be in sectors where the advantage was mainly on the EU's side, not the UK's.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 16:48

Yes it is definitely true that where the margins are small those who voted for a third candidate may have made the difference, but please do not assume that when I protest with my vote and vote Green rather than Lib Dem I am going to make any kind of difference. And my protest is with Labour not the likely winner of any GE.

I'm not arguing that people shouldn't vote according to their conscience. But they do need to accept the consequences of their votes and not shift the blame onto others. In the US, Stein voters were predominantly well off white voters who could afford to play Russian roulette with their Medicare/ ACA coverage. Others did not have that luxury. Stein voters who complain that Hillary lost because she was a poor candidate are hypocrites.

howabout · 02/12/2016 16:57

Exponential medicare cost increases for middle earners due to extension of coverage under Obamacare was cited as one of the reasons for Clinton's loss. Post election Trump is talking about modification rather than abolition of Obamacare so Stein voters may have called it right if they were indeed so rich the issue was of no concern to them - having lived and worked in a very well paid role in the US I would say that healthcare costs are not negligible for all but the top 1%.

I often hold my nose and vote SNP despite being anti-independence. I think the days of "people like me" politics are over.

harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 17:01

Even if the EU were willing to accept any sector-by-sector arrangements (and that's a big if) I'm willing to be it would only be in sectors where the advantage was mainly on the EU's side, not the UK's.

But this isn't how negotiations work. There is give and take on both sides. Don't forget we are net contributors to the EU, we do actually have something to offer.

My theory is that TM is going for soft Brexit, sector by sector etc, it seems to satisfy the middle ground of remain and brexit (ie. not buggering up the economy but claiming control over immigration, even if numbers do not come down) ....the EU will say no and push us to hard Brexit (to teach us a lesson). Tim Farron's position of a second referendum on the agreement seems illogical - if it's hard Brexit, maybe "No" would be the answer to his referendum, but at that point we're out of the EU. The clock has stopped ticking, negotiations are over..... or is he suggesting a referendum on the soft brexit position in my example above (also illogical given that's the starting point for negotiations and certainly won't be the end point).

Boris's speech today on NATO - basically endorsing Trump's view that NATO members have to start paying the 2% of GDP they are meant to pay for defence, like Greece, Poland, US, UK and Estonia turns the heat up a bit in my opinion on closer union from a defence point of view (ie. the EU army, which Boris said we won't oppose anymore) or for EU nations to start paying fairly for their defence and not relying on the US. Looks like we are cosying up to The Donald.....

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 17:10

the EU army, which Boris said we won't oppose anymore

How well is that going to go down with Leave voters? This was one reason given for wanting out of the EU. So we might get to be part of an Army but have little say in how it operates?

Not that we should take any notice of what Boris says - he opens his mouth and rubbish comes out.

howabout · 02/12/2016 17:11

Peter Bone was suggesting it would be the EU rather than us paying for sector by sector access given the state of our trade deficit with the EU. Grin

Not sure there is any less truth in this than the dawning realisation as articulated by Mark Carney that the EU needs the City of London to access international finance or risks having to deal with New York or Singapore instead.

MariePoppins · 02/12/2016 17:14

I think you are wrong about the aims of the EU.
The EU is going to protect their own interest, i.e. protect the integrity of the EU.
This isn't going to happen if they start accepting sectors by sectors negociations or by thinking of the money they will loose. They will but the loss will be small compare to the damage done if the whole of the EU dissolves because Brexit isn't handle properly on the EU pov.

Besides, elections are coming in France and in Germany.
Germany has always been very europhile and will want to support the continuation of the European project. They are not going to back down.
The right candidate in France (Francois Fillion) is also a very strong europhile. (I'm going to assume he is going to win against Le Pen)

The room for manoeuvring is very small for the UK because none of these countries will be happy to put the European project in jeopardy.

And it's not an issue of the EU having a go at the Uk or wanting to make things difficult. It's the basic thing that their interest are completely different that the UK's and atm in complete opposition.

MariePoppins · 02/12/2016 17:16

how what Carney said wasn't that the EU needs London. He said there was no way European financial instructions will stay in London if the Uk isn't part of the EU anymore.
Which TBH makes sense.
So what you will see is the move of all financial institutions linked with Europe and the euro move back somewhere in Europe (Frankfurt, Paris?)

Motheroffourdragons · 02/12/2016 17:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

MariePoppins · 02/12/2016 17:18

Basically the issue is that, on the EU pov, the world doesn't revolve around the Uk but around the European project.

In the UK, the world revolves around British interest.

And these two are not compatible atm.

howabout · 02/12/2016 17:20

In which case mariepoppins "hard" Brexit would be the only game in town and we should just get on with it. I however do not believe the EU are incapable of negotiation. They merrily do deals on borders and financial support for Turkey when it pragmatically suits while decrying them from the rooftops in the next breath.

missmoon · 02/12/2016 17:26

Sector-by-sector preferential trade deals are against WTO rules if offered to only one country outside of a free trade agreement. So the EU would have to offer the same preferential access to other countries, as would the UK. This has been pointed out many times. It's nonsense!

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 17:27

My theory is that TM is going for soft Brexit, sector by sector etc, it seems to satisfy the middle ground of remain and brexit (ie. not buggering up the economy but claiming control over immigration, even if numbers do not come down) ....the EU will say no and push us to hard Brexit (to teach us a lesson).

I'm not sure what she's doing, but the timescales involved would seem to make this approach very difficult to out into practice. It's basically a Swiss style approach and those sort of sector-by-sector negotiations will take time - time which A50 doesn't allow for, and which may be politically hard to sell (would brexiters be prepared to wait 10 years for brexit, or to contenance an interim EEA period?)

Tim Farron's position of a second referendum on the agreement seems illogical - if it's hard Brexit, maybe "No" would be the answer to his referendum, but at that point we're out of the EU.

It makes sense if it were a pre-A50 referendum, or if a referral to the ECJ resulted in a decision that A50 is in fact revocable.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 17:28

I don't think the EU are incapable of negotiation; I do think that Theresa May is totally incapable. As for her three stooges - two of them are totally incompetent, and one just acts as though he is, but could be OK if ... it... just...wasn't.....toooo..... much......trouble.....to...put... his....mind...to...it.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 17:30

since the polls are always way out nowadays

National polling in the US may have been quite accurate: Clinton will end up with a 2% margin in terms of votes cast, well within the margin of polling error. State level polling was wrong, but not universally, and not always in the same direction.

MariePoppins · 02/12/2016 17:31

how I don't agree. They can also accept a Norwegian type of situation,
What they wont do is cherry pick and accept the loss of the FOM.

NotDavidTennant · 02/12/2016 17:31

They merrily do deals on borders and financial support for Turkey when it pragmatically suits

Doing pragmatic deals with Turkey generally doesn't effect the integrity of the European project. In fact, to some extent the reverse is the case: not striking deals with Turkey potentially risks destabilising the EU due to unrestricted immigration of refugees.

The UK is in a completely different position to Turkey when it comes to negotiating with the EU. The analogy doesn't hold.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 17:37

I'm guessing last night's victory in Richmond was a protest against May and Zac Goldsmith. Is that a good thing or a bad thing ? We think it is a good thing when it suits us.

It's not good or bad. People's votes are theirs to do what they want with. OTOH, I have little sympathy with Stein voters who voted for a poor candidate and contributed to the election of an even worse one. They don't get to blame the result on someone else.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 17:44

OTOH, I have little sympathy with Stein voters who voted for a poor candidate and contributed to the election of an even worse one.

But how much of the Brexit vote was cast with the intention of telling Cameron what he could do with himself? I nearly voted that way myself, thought better of it, got rid of him anyway, and got someone worse. It's definitely a case of be careful what you wish for.

whatwouldrondo · 02/12/2016 18:43

harvest Sorry been busy catching up after dropping work for a couple of days but I see others have pointed out that London is not homogenous. All of the Richmond Park constituency is made up predominantly of fairly standard terraced and semi detached 3/4 bed houses, a few roads of mansions and a few Council estates and areas of small cottages too. It is not an area where you will find anything of interest to overseas investors, not flashy enough an address and not enough new builds. The fact that The Star and Garter development on Richmond Hill has been snapped up by overseas investors is exceptional and controversial.

Yes prices are mad, our house is now worth 5 times what we paid for it 17 years ago and then we were scraping together to afford it with two of us on well paid senior management roles. We could have moved back north, bought a bigger house for half the price , maybe I could have been a SAHM, as my parents constantly remind us, but we chose to stay in the smoke as did most of our friends who like us tend to be from working class background in the regions, are in a similar situation to us. Our road like many in this area is very mixed socially, our older neighbours are teachers, engineers, local government employees, small business owners. Younger families who have moved in recently are tending to be city workers but not high flying bankers, the city is not homogenous either, many are in back office and support roles that don't pay out massive bonuses.

whatwouldrondo · 02/12/2016 18:49

I would add that your jumping to this easy stereotype is something else that has emerged post Brexit. Suddenly London is a place that is othered as full of stinking rich bankers living in a bubble as opposed to a huge city that encompasses just about every social and economic demographic. Richmond has a food bank and the constituency has at least two wards with recognised problems of social deprivation on the Richmond side, not so familiar with the Kingston end.

whatwouldrondo · 02/12/2016 18:52

One of those areas of deprivation is incidentally about half a mile from Lady Annabels mansion.......

merrymouse · 02/12/2016 19:08

Looks like we are cosying up to The Donald.....

I've said it before, but this all feels very 2000/2001.