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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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Motheroffourdragons · 02/12/2016 14:05

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harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 14:09

WOW - Sarah Olney just walked out of an interview with Julia Harltey Brewer on Talk Radio. She's going to need thicker skin in the future. Quite a baptism of fire

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/02/lib-dems-new-mp-sarah-olney-dragged-off-air-brexit-grilling/

lalalonglegs · 02/12/2016 14:16

Oh dear, I do think it was a mistake to put an extremely inexperienced politician (she only joined a political party last year) up against a cynical old hack like JHB. No doubt JHB is bigging herself up on Twitter for taking this political scalp Hmm.

Kaija · 02/12/2016 14:18

I think more people should walk out of interviews with JHB to be honest.

howabout · 02/12/2016 14:18

misti the disparity between average house prices and average incomes is the most striking thing for me too. Since Red posted about immigration I am now wondering how pro EU the voters of Richmond would be if someone suggested putting affordable high rise flats all over Richmond Park. (a much more sensible suggestion than the proposals on the aibu about immigration thread to build all over the deserted Scottish highlands to solve the housing crisis in the South East).

Property prices in my part of central Scotland are about 50% higher than in 2001. In the part of inner London I lived in they are 400% higher over the same period. The median wage gap has not moved.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 14:25

I'm not looking for a bun fight. The point I'm trying to make is that it is a very wealthy area. I agree, London is stuffed full of bankers, given the City is located there, and house prices are unaffordable to most non City types. Richmond is one of the those London boroughs where they live (As is Westminster, K&C, Ham and Ful, Wandsworth etc) - all unaffordable to normal people. Maybe I should have said stuffed full of bankers and overseas property investors that don't live there.

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I assume you have never lived in London. Even in the wealthiest parts of London, rich and poor often live alongside. And £58k is not a high household income by London standards; that figure will be made up of a minority on large (>£250k) incomes, many people who are by London standards "just managing" (unless they bought property 20-30 years ago) who will live on household incomes in the £50-60k bracket most of which will be eaten up by housing costs, and a surprisingly large number of people on lower incomes who rely on housing benefit and in-work benefits to get by.

Richmond is a wealthy place, but I would be prepared to bet that its wealth (as is London's generally) is due to a small minority of very high earners, and a larger number of property owners many of whom bought well before the prices became unmanageable. Many of my London friends, working in public sector jobs on relatively modest wages, have housing assets worth well over £500k and sometimes over £1m, simply because they bought at £70-80k in the 1990s or before. One friend lives in a self-built property in Muswell Hill that he built with his immigrant working-class father-in-law in the 1980s and that is now worth about £1.2m Shock).

howabout · 02/12/2016 14:31

Exactly misti.

Cannot generally stand JHB (turns out she sometimes votes LD) but here is the link to the carcrash for anyone in need of a giggle after watching AN's highly restrained grilling of TF on the DP.

talkradio.co.uk/news/new-richmond-park-mp-sarah-olney-dragged-air-pr-after-grilling-julia-1612027334

TheNorthRemembers · 02/12/2016 14:32

So what really happened at the Sarah Olney interview? Did they really expect her to have a full plan for Brexit on her own when the government does not have one?

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 14:35

howabout an important step towards resolving the housing crisis would be to ensure that homes in London are actually lived in. There are now parts of London, which were ordinary (if wealthy) residential areas 20-30 years ago, but which are now dark at night because so few homes are occupied.

My father used to live in South Kensington; recently I spent a few nights in a hotel near where he used to live, and I was shocked at how few houses appeared to be lived-in. Certainly there were few lights on in the streets around the hotel when I left for work at 6.30am and returned at 7pm.

Back in the day (1990) when my dad lived in a South Ken mews property, every home in the mews was permanently occupied. He has since moved to the North Norfolk coast, where he has a flat in a period building in a very desirable village. When he bought, all the flats were occupied permanently. Now only one is; the rest are second homes occupied 2-4 weeks a year.

This is the story of Britain's housing crisis.

howabout · 02/12/2016 14:43

I lived in South Ken the same time as your dad misti and have inlaws all over London and the home counties so I completely get what you are saying. However I do get the impression that most in the South East are quite happy for house prices to fall as long as their own one does not. They also only want new development which will not impact on them in any way.

Outside the South East I would say that BTL and rising generational inequality in wages and benefits together with under planning and building is the story of Britain's housing crisis.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/12/2016 14:45

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Mistigri · 02/12/2016 14:48

Ok - thinking about it - so what do you think I should do then, misti?

Everyone should vote as they think best, just don't fool yourself that a protest vote is "tactical". If I get my vote back (a government manifesto promise that is in the process of being reneged on) I will most likely get a vote in a constituency where my vote is not worth much. The sitting MP is David Lammy who has a big majority and who as a Lib Dem I would have no particular problem in voting for (pro-EU, representative of the community he is elected to serve). I would probably vote LD unless I thought that my vote might conceivably be the difference between Lammy winning and a Tory getting in. So as long as he was sure to win, I would make a protest vote (not against Lammy personally but against his party); if he was at risk, I would vote tactically for him.

Also, re trump, if you look at the third party and particularly the Green vote in the states where recounts are being requested there is a good argument that Stein voters helped to elect Trump.

howabout · 02/12/2016 14:50

But then misti I have watched interviews with Stein and Sanders supporters who actually did prefer Trump to Clinton.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 14:51

Outside the South East I would say that BTL and rising generational inequality in wages and benefits together with under planning and building is the story of Britain's housing crisis.

Then you have not visited north Norfolk or South Devon recently (two areas I know well; there are no doubt others).

In my dad's wealthy Norfolk village, the permanent population is now so low that shops which have been there for generations are being driven out of business.

Kaija · 02/12/2016 14:51

JHB is a bit more than a cynical old hack nowadays. She's gone full troll from what I can see. Katie Hopkins for the more discerning bigot.

Mistigri · 02/12/2016 14:58

But then misti I have watched interviews with Stein and Sanders supporters who actually did prefer Trump to Clinton.

Sure, we have no way of knowing that they would have voted for Clinton - they might not have voted at all. Nevertheless the figures are quite compelling, given the exceptionally small margins by which Trump won these states.

TheBathroomSink · 02/12/2016 15:02

I agree misti - lots in the news about Airbnb messing with the London property market, not so much on the 'English Country Cottages' problem in North Devon, for example, where, like you say, there are places with almost nothing left for local residents because the population can't support them.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 15:05

Did the Leave Campaign promote leaving the Single market as that ghastly Julia said? Didn't see any red bus with that on myself, I thought they were promoting more money for the NHS. Daniel Hannan didn't think so either on the following night's Newsnight.

Doesn't matter what Julia thinks - Sarah Onley won a by-election by the normal rules and if she doesn't come up to scratch, the electorate can vote her out next time, and we know when that will be unless TM's Government collapses.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 15:09

Second homes are not just a problem in N Devon - E Devon, North Wales, Cornwall, are also blighted by second home ownership.

twofingerstoGideon · 02/12/2016 15:18

Actually, I think the interviewer said it was the remain campaign that said leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. The leave campaign said it too, and also said that it 'didn't mean' leaving the single market!

I imagine Sarah Olney has been up all night, so doubt she was running on all cylinders. I agree with what she said: that there should be another vote on the terms of Brexit and that people voted for a departure and not a destination. It's a pity the interviewer couldn't shut up for a second and listen to the answers and respond to them, instead of just ploughing on and making her own points, rather than having any meaningful discussion.

harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 15:32

Andrew Neil's interview with Tim Farron today.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b084jk55/daily-politics-02122016

Motheroffourdragons · 02/12/2016 15:37

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harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 15:50

And here's a strategy for Brexit...

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/is-a-brexit-strategy-finally-beginning-to-emerge-from-the-fog/

TheNorthRemembers · 02/12/2016 15:55

I am a bit lazy to upset myself today. Was the radio interview like Nicola Murray's interview In The Thick of It?

lalalonglegs · 02/12/2016 16:04

That is a very interesting analysis, thanks for linking, harvest. But, if the article is to be believed, won't TM risk pulling off a double whammy of upsetting the Remainers who would like closer links with the EU (and the protection that provides) and pissing off the Brexiters who believe anything to do with the EU is toxic?