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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

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Thread gallery
21
MariePoppins · 25/11/2016 14:46

Ok can someone explain something to me?

I was reading this article about how the DM covered the Jo Cox murder.
antifascistnetwork.org and how they managed to make it an immigration issue.

Further down the article, there are some links to 'grass root movements' against fascism. Follow the link and you come accross a list of manifestation, contra manifestations both of said 'anti fascist' group and 'fascist' groups.
Can someone explain me if those are really happening and if yes why we never hear about them?

LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 14:47

Just FTAOD, my comments were directed at my peers - people who grew up in England. Obviously people in either Ireland will have different perspectives. I wasn't trying to be patronising ... but bear in mind to my DS (20) tales of bombs (bearing in mind we live in Brum) are just that. Tales. It's as real for him, as WW2 is for me.

And, I didn't say people under 40 "didn't know". I said "could not remember" - as in did not experience.

Still, pleased to have sparked a discussion ...

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2016 14:51

Because 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist'.

If you want a simple answer, calling it a civil war legitimises the opposition side.

It always frustrates me when people in the US on 9/11 went on about how bad terrorists were yet there were so many American IRA supporters.

This colours how I see dynamics of world politics.

Civil War / Terrorism as a term is essentially just spin. No innocent party who is on the front line of getting blown up really gives a shit, which it is at the end of the day.

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LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 14:54

But I dont understand why what hapened with the IRA isnt seen as a civil war in this country.

A rose, by any other name ?

Remember, winners write history. Also the oft-cited fact that one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. I can remember full well the Thatcher polemic that the IRA were criminals, and should be treated as such with no concessions to any notion they were involved in a military struggle.

This was the line the press was told - or chose - to toe. Hence my comment about the controversy of Ken Livingstone daring to question that version of the truth.

And life went on.

So why are we treating a few jumped-up Jihadjis any differently ? Why do they get special laws, and why do we lose our freedoms to them ?

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2016 14:59

'Didn't experience'

I grew up in Warrington.

I was fourteen at the time of the bombing and 'experienced it'.
The two kids who died were 2 and 12.
It was day before mother's day, so loads of kids in town that day.

Manchester was bombed 3 years after that.

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LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 15:03

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38102507

Interesting challenge, post Brexit ...

Jaguar Land Rover's chief executive Dr Ralf Speth has laid out a future vision which could see 10,000 new jobs created in the West Midlands.
He said at an industry event that Britain's largest carmaker by volume would like to double production from 500,000 to one million cars a year.
But it would depend on the government helping to upgrade power supplies and invest in surrounding infrastructure.
The firm would also like a guarantee on access to engineering talent.
A company spokesman said the production target was "very much a want, rather than a will", but declined to commit on precise job numbers.
The 10,000 figure was mentioned by Lord Kumar Bhattacharyya, chairman of Warwick Manufacturing Group. Although it was not confirmed by the company, it was not dismissed either.
It comes after the decision of Nissan to move two new next generation models to its Sunderland plant, backed by assurances from the government that it would help to invest in automotive research and development.
Nissan produced almost 477,000 vehicles in the UK last year, while just under 490,000 rolled off JLR's production lines, according to industry body the SMMT.
Now it seems Jaguar Land Rover has thrown down the gauntlet to the government to match the carmaker's ambition with big pledges for investment.
Jaguar Land Rover chief executive Ralf Speth wants to double the number of UK-produced cars to one million
Specifically, the company is looking for help with infrastructure surrounding a 60 acre site and provide significant additional power resources. JLR says its plans could require the output of four power plants.
It is a tantalising vision of huge investment in the automotive heart of Britain.
Can the government match the soaring ambition of one of the UK's largest manufacturers with similarly ambitious support?
Although the company described this as an aspiration more than a plan, it is much more than day-dreaming.
According to company sources, this vision has been long held by Jaguar Land Rover's boss, but he had chosen not to share it before and waited until Greg Clark, the Business Secretary, was in the room to hear it.
The message was clear - the ball is now in the government's court.

My prediction ? Won't happen. The UK just doesn't do infrastructure - look at the power crisis slowly looming. And our roads are a joke ... took me 40 minutes to drive 2.5 miles Monday - apparently the everyday journey.

I wonder how the blame will fall.

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2016 15:07

Our 'survelliance state' is a direct result of Warrington. Prior to that there wasn't CCTV everywhere.

Its very unlikely it would have stopped the bombing. Yet it was sold to the public that it would have and thus we have it everywhere these days.

We started to loose our freedoms due to the IRA and not Islamic terrorists.

I am not a fan of the CCTV state. I don't think it stops crime. Its our version of the US when they say that having guns stops crimes being committed. Other countries don't have significantly higher crime rates due to having significantly less CCTV coverage.

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EmilyAlice · 25/11/2016 15:31

I don't think people under forty are any more likely to be unaware of the IRA campaign than older people "are likely to be desensitised". I hate all these generational generalisations.
We are people with different backgrounds, different experiences and different lives. We do not conform to stereotypes that depend on how old we are.
I am 67 and I am not a right-wing old fart.
Rant over. Grin

LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 15:33

We are people with different backgrounds, different experiences and different lives. We do not conform to stereotypes that depend on how old we are.

The irony being I made that very point yesterday Smile Thu 24-Nov-16 16:30:27

PattyPenguin · 25/11/2016 15:39

Who are Jaguar Land Rover going to sell their one million cars to?

I take it we've all seen the IFS figures on earnings
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38090977 Who in the UK will be able to afford JLR models?

Exports to the EU will depend on tariffs and non-tariff barriers. Ditto the US.

I suppose we can hope that China doesn't implode and that the CPP doesn't decide that, actually, they need jobs building cars at home and no more vehicles will be imported.

Or are we going to be exporting cars to the Anglophone Commonwealth or alternatively Africa?

ImpYCelyn · 25/11/2016 15:43

I don't think being close enough to a massive bomb going off to be able to hear it, age 11, can really be called not experiencing it. I can certainly remember it. I can remember the local reaction and aftermath, and the reactions of friends whose parents worked in Canary Wharf.

I still think it's a massive generalisation to say people under 40 in England didn't "experience" it. We experienced it as children, so differently perhaps, but it was still part of our lives growing up.

EmilyAlice · 25/11/2016 15:52

I can still remember how terrified I was by the Cuban Missile Crisis when I was about 12. It has never left me.

LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 16:05

Who are Jaguar Land Rover going to sell their one million cars to?

Let's put it this way ... they will be left hand drive Sad

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2016 16:07

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58384cd3e4b0207d191800e1
Huffpost saying farages march was never going ahead as no one ever did the proper organisation needed for it. It was never happening.

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TheBathroomSink · 25/11/2016 16:28

JLR sell a lot of fleet vehicles. The 2.2 XF was not a bad deal tax-wise, according to the lists our fleet manager sends out whenever someone's due a new car.

PattyPenguin · 25/11/2016 16:44

True, Bathroom, but in future, how will the spread of the gig economy affect fleets? Companies increasingly want to shift the expense of vehicles (as well as everything else) to the individuals who work for them.

And if they are forced to take people on as employees, rather than self-employed contractors (humungous "if" there), they won't want to be supplying vehicles if they can possibly help it.

merrymouse · 25/11/2016 16:54

whatwouldrondo and Gumpendorf, I am fascinated by the RP by election because I grew up in the constituency and lived there till about 5 years ago.

For most of the time that I lived there as an adult, it was Libdem (13 years). I agree with earlier comments (I think from whatwouldrondo) that the demographics of the area have changed - the residents have always been well off, but when I was a child pretty much all the houses were in reach of anybody with a professional salary.

However, has it really changed that much since 2005? Have all the Libdems moved away? On the other hand, the old seat of Richmond and Barnes was narrowly Tory for many years. Maybe it's just a return to the status quo. But then I assume that 'incomers' are people with very well paid jobs working for banks and international companies - Don't they want to give TM a bit of a shake?

Re: Eton, I would have thought that most intellectual snobs in the area would look down on Eton.

TheBathroomSink · 25/11/2016 17:16

Not sure patty - the company I work for has a software division so has always had contractors working there, either for specialist, one-off requirements or short term to meet a deadline, but most of the staff are employed. The Jags and Range Rovers don't make the company car options until you are fairly senior, you have to work up to them via VWs and BMWs!

The benefits package they offer for developers is good, and has been upped more than once, partly because we aren't in London and we need people to choose to come to us. It gets audited on a regular basis and I know some of the cars that used to be on the exec list got bumped down to manager level a few years back because it was coming up short.

I suppose it would be different in a different area/industry but they don't have any plans at the moment to switch to more casual arrangements.

Peregrina · 25/11/2016 17:22

Now it seems Jaguar Land Rover has thrown down the gauntlet to the government to match the carmaker's ambition with big pledges for investment.

Is there any reason why we couldn't do this as part of the EU? Are they telling us not to develop our infrastructure?

whatwouldrondo · 25/11/2016 17:23

I too had direct experience of IRA bombings, I had just walked past a waste bin in Victoria when a bomb went off in it, killing a man, and I worked close to Buckingham Palace and experienced being evacuated after a coded warning on several occasions. You were constantly aware of the threat. I am not understating experiences on the mainland but I travelled to Norrhern Ireland on business at the time and certainly do not think our experiences on the mainland in any way matched the way in which lives were dominated not just by the violence and military presence but also the deep rooted sectarianism. I don't think of it as a UK civil war because I perceive it as a Civil War in Ireland (and I was evacuated from a pub in Dublin that was blown up) . It is not that I believe in a united Ireland but aside from the role of the UK government, culturally and historically it was about Irish issues. The bombing campaigns were to get the mainland population to exert influence on government policy. In my job I met people from both sides of the divide and that was how it was always put to me, not in terms of animosity to the mainland people, but in terms of their influence on government.

LurkingHusband · 25/11/2016 17:29

Now it seems Jaguar Land Rover has thrown down the gauntlet to the government to match the carmaker's ambition with big pledges for investment.

Is there any reason why we couldn't do this as part of the EU? Are they telling us not to develop our infrastructure?

I posted the story because you'd think it would be trumpeted from the rooftops by every cheerleader for leave from Lands End to ... Berwick.

But (as I suspected) the response has been underwhelming to say the least ... the cynic in me suggests that's because the government has no intention of investing in any infrastructure (why start now ?) and would rather the whole challenge went away.

I could be wrong - I hope I am.

Now if those factories could be somehow built in Kent ....

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2016 17:34

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
The UK is not worried about the EU knowing its Brexit negotiation stance, but UK media.

UK media is the real opponent in this negotiation.

If UK government could choose between EU and UK media knowing its Brexit negotiating position, the UK would choose the EU.

Like a shot.

Can't argue with that.

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whatwouldrondo · 25/11/2016 17:54

Merrie Yes it has changed since 2005. There has been an outward pressure as overseas investors colonised Central London and bankers who would have gone to Kensington and Fulham now go to Barnes or Richmond , you cannot move there for iceberg basement extensions. In addition the Nappy Valley of gentified Clapham and Wandsworth now are moving on as they think of schools, and they are also colonising the less expensive parts of the borough like Sheen and Mortlake. In addition the old trend of wealthy parents moving on to a country house with secondary age children off to boarding school, is no longer happening. And those whose children have fled the nest are cashing in on the price rises to downsize. What were solid middle class roads in areas like Sheen are becoming more like Barnes (and Richmond) was ten years ago. It is not so true of the Kingston end though but I have less direct experience

InformalRoman · 25/11/2016 17:56

Bathroom and Patty - contractors probably operate as limited companies and vehicles for work would run as a business expense?

merrymouse · 25/11/2016 17:58

I think the type of people who used to live in Sheen now live in Kingston - or atleast that is what it was like 5 years ago - not sure whether Kingston is affordable now.

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