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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

OP posts:
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21
LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 14:42

Digital currencies scare me, although I'm not really sure why

You do realise a pound coin is a worthless lump of metal ?

It's arguable the invention - or development - of money is the key factor in allowing mankind to swap labour.

HMG could turn around at anytime, and say "You know that £1,000 you've got ? Well, actually, it's only worth £900. Now do fuck off." and you'd be powerless to stop them.

(Of course, inflation does that anyway over time).

WrongTrouser · 23/11/2016 14:47

It is very hard to support universal suffrage sometimes

Yet we allow people who have no idea how a country works to take the controls once every five years, under the guise of "democracy" (which incidentally did not mean one-man-one-vote in it's ancient Greek incarnation)

This isn't a call for some sort of voter qualification. It is however an observation that when the votes are being wielded by the ignorant and the wicked with no discrimination, the best thing all round is to ensure that each vote is worthless and counts for nothing

I'm really shocked at this post. I don't know who you are, LH, and I don't know what god-given super powers you have which enable you to determine who is ignorant and who is wicked, but I find what you are saying horrifying.

In the old days we used to talk about class, but now we just call people we disagree with stupid and evil.

LH, you may wish to read the Guardian Long Read on education RTB recommended a while back. Or you may just wish to carry on considering yourself superior to other mortals.

TheBathroomSink · 23/11/2016 14:47

You do realise a pound coin is a worthless lump of metal ?

Yes, and like I said, I'm not really sure why I don't like digital currencies at the moment

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 14:48

I don't understand digital currencies either, but most currencies are just book keeping transactions as far as I am aware, so how different is it?

Is the Autumn statement considered to be a good or bad thing - does anyone with better knowledge than me have an informed opinion? I see Ed Milliband has said the Chancellor has adopted Labour's proposals.

I can see some point of moving the budget from Spring to Autumn - it will give firms more time to get changes to payrolls sorted. Any other benefits? The next planned election will be in May 2020 - so no chance of last minute tax bribes to keep people voting for the tories.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 14:51

I'm really shocked at this post. I don't know who you are, LH, and I don't know what god-given super powers you have which enable you to determine who is ignorant and who is wicked, but I find what you are saying horrifying.

No, you just didn't understand what I was saying - and then were shocked at what you imagined.

What do you think i said ?

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 14:53

I can see some point of moving the budget from Spring to Autumn

I wonder if January 1st was considered Smile ?

InformalRoman · 23/11/2016 14:59

I took LH's comments on democracy to be more a slur on the competence of the politicians than the electorate.

Oh, and I'm thinking Greenwich as the World Heritage site?

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 15:00

Re: digital currencies, I think somebody mentioned this up thread, but in India they have just banned 500 and 1000 rupee notes to crack down on fraud/black market transactions.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:00

I don't understand digital currencies either, but most currencies are just book keeping transactions as far as I am aware, so how different is it?

Digital currencies are logged in a ledger which is distributed and (correctly implemented) inviolable.

So every transaction is recorded forever. You can't fake one. You can't forge one. You can track every single penny from it's creation (whether by virtual mining or just being put on the blockchain) to where it currently sits.

As I say, the technology is possible.

One thing which springs immediately to mind is the issue of money - or rather people - being taxed upon taxed upon taxed. It was a running gripe of my fathers that having earned money - and paid tax on it, you were expected to then pay tax when you spent it (VAT). And when you put it a bank. And so on. Buy fuel ? That tax and excise.

I have no idea what - if anything - digital currencies could do in that situation.

Bear in mind, politicians have already got digital currencies and blockchain in their sights ...

www.publictechnology.net/articles/news/dwp-benefit-blockchain-trial-slammed-digital-experts

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 15:02

And I think I read that about 80% of transactions are done with these notes, so it's not like withdrawing £50 notes.

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 15:05

People will continue to be taxed on taxed earnings. Tax is only nominally about fairness. Predominately it's about effectively and efficiently raising taxes.

You can only tax people who have money.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:06

Oh, and I'm thinking Greenwich as the World Heritage site?

Never crossed my mind, although there is a vague connection as I went to Uni there Smile

Actually a quick fact check shows that where I worked isn't a WHS - although it was earmarked in the 1990s (which was when I was there - hence my mistake). It's intriguing that not being a WHS has allowed significant development which would have been prevented. Hmm

Mistigri · 23/11/2016 15:16

People will continue to be taxed on taxed earnings. Tax is only nominally about fairness. Predominately it's about effectively and efficiently raising taxes.

I always think the "already taxed earnings" argument is an intellectually shallow one anyway. Somehow no one makes this argument about taxes paid by the poor, like VAT, which is of course paid out of already taxed earnings.

Treating capital gains as income (which is what happens here in France, effectively: there is no specific CGT allowance, you pay at your marginal rate) makes absolute sense.

WrongTrouser · 23/11/2016 15:19

Because most people don't think. That's not a snidey remark, just the truth

LH my understanding of the previous post I quoted and the quote above, and others, is that you feel that you have a superior intelligence/understanding of politics/morals to most people and that, as a result, you do not feel that giving equal democratic rights to all is the way to go. I very much hope I have misunderstood (it wouldn't be the first time) - if I have please do correct me.

InformalRoman · 23/11/2016 15:20

LH, I'm intrigued now Grin - a not quite WHS.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:24

Digital currencies make all transactions visible. As naive users of BitCoin are discovering, as police forces of the world continue otcome crashing through their doors (anonymity is a fiction) for drugs and child sexual exploitation offences (and good job too).

They also make it possible to address any individual ... imagine finding all your money had gone because the government had put an instruction on the blockchain to confiscate it for some reason. The reason I know about this, is there are governments (amazingly not the UK, which did surprise me) who are looking at this, as I type.

Blockchain implemented as a state machine also allows "smart" contracts whereby transfers are linked to external events which must occur in order to complete. Again, an area several governments are starting to investigate. If that does emerge, it would remove the requirement for a whole load of bureaucracy which is currently doing the same job - courts for one.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:38

LH my understanding of the previous post I quoted and the quote above, and others, is that you feel that you have a superior intelligence/understanding of politics/morals to most people and that, as a result, you do not feel that giving equal democratic rights to all is the way to go. I very much hope I have misunderstood (it wouldn't be the first time) - if I have please do correct me.

Nope. I certainly do not regard myself as superior to anyone. Different, yes. Superior - definitely not.

The point I was trying to make was that if we follow the narrative that there is power in a vote, then it's interesting that we happily give that power to anyone based on the simplest of qualifications. Whereas if we were talking about anything else of power (I used the example of an airliner) then we wouldn't let the same people anywhere near it.

From that starting observation , we can move down a few different paths.

One of which is to track backwards, and note that maybe - just maybe - a vote isn't quite as powerful as we have been told.

Another path is to note that under universal suffrage, all votes are of equal value. Yours. Mine. The skinhead racist at no. 24. The lady at no. 139 who believes that fairies live at the bottom of her garden. All those votes are equal.

I then combined the two thoughts to suggest that possibly - just possibly - the price we have to pay for universal suffrage (which I would defend to the death, by the way) is to reduce the value of each vote until a single vote is - to all intents and purposes - worthless. I then tried a weak attempt at humour commenting on the year ...

It's one way of looking at life. Not as simple as saying "God says so", but intellectually more satisfying.

Hope that de-monsterfied me Hmm ?

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:43

LH, I'm intrigued now grin - a not quite WHS.

It was the site of the Soho Foundry in Smethwick - the first modern factory in the world (where James Watt taught the world about subscription models). It was definitely investigated for WHS status, as we had a load of UN visitors at the time.

There was a unique (as in only place on earth) museum on the site too. Disappeared since the Weigh Tronix "merger". Price of everything, value of nothing.

CeciledeVolanges · 23/11/2016 15:45

Lurking I got your Hitchhiker reference (although I think it was a goat they were told about). "I'm sure there was a reason." "You're a load of useless bloody loonies!" "Oh yes, that was it".

I am NOT BEING ENTIRELY SERIOUS before someone takes offence

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 15:49

I got your Hitchhiker reference (although I think it was a goat they were told about)

Actually it was a rogue black hole ....

InformalRoman · 23/11/2016 15:53

That's sad LH - looks like there isn't much left of the original buildings now.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 16:00

That's sad LH - looks like there isn't much left of the original buildings now.

There used to be a little row of cottages just inside the main gate - not sure if there were listed. They were the first houses to be lit by gas in the world. The whole site was dripping with history (Time Team used the site to store all their filming equipment when they did a programme on the Soho Manufactury (not foundry). Loads of buried railway tracks where locomotives bought goods in and out; as well as the inevitable canal links. Before my time, the cottages were used for overspill filing, and people talked about "being haunted" ...

InformalRoman · 23/11/2016 16:06

We had a morgue on one of the sites I worked on, that was used as storage (although it had been used for its original purpose in times gone by). Now that is a building that really should be haunted.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 16:22

(thread drift ...)

Now that is a building that really should be haunted.

If ghosts existed. Which they don't.

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 16:46

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/donald-trump-transition.amp.html?client=safari

Hilary now has a lead of over 2 million votes - a bigger lead than 7 presidents.

Even if all voting was completely above board, that would seem to show massive divisions within the US.