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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

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Thread gallery
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merrymouse · 23/11/2016 11:14

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/23/the-tarantula-stays-tory-chief-whip-wont-remove-pet-spider-from-office-gavin-williamson

This kind of detail will be really useful when they make 'Brexit' the TV series. Possible opening titles?

BigChocFrenzy · 23/11/2016 11:19

LH - I'm starting to develop a theory that if you a lie big enough, and tell it often enough, people will believe it.
From the all-time expert Joseph Goebbels:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.

It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”**

< shudders >

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 11:20

whatwouldrondo

Lurking Is there not another layer to that as well?

I have to confess I'm not quite grasping the point Hmm. Any complex fluid system will have internal flows and eddies ... the ascendance of the West is relatively recent and short lived and bound up with an emigration of ideas - and people - from the (Middle) East (I appreciate the geography is more complex than that).

But any rebalancing - intentional or otherwise - still needs to be viewed against my previous point. World population - which shows no signs whatsoever of slowing - cannot continue at the current trajectory. Put very simply - we don't need so many human beings on planet Earth. And if H.sapiens can't sort itself out without help then Nature will step in. And we can't say we weren't warned (by experts).

MangoMoon · 23/11/2016 11:29

Prettybird Shock at the article about the student spotting the error!

Wow!

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 11:30

BigChocFrenzy

Godwin Smile.

Don't depress me. What we are seeing - and have been subject to since the 90s - is the totalitarian playbook being acted out before our very eyes. With all of us complicit. Since we're swapping quotes, here's a few more - all 70-80 years old. I defy anyone with a half decent set of critical faculties to not be able to connect at least half to recent (since 1990) history.

There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the **er, and this will always be "the man in the street." Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology.

A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth

Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will.

This is the secret of propaganda: Those who are to be persuaded by it should be completely immersed in the ideas of the propaganda, without ever noticing that they are being immersed in it.

Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.

...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.

Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.

We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of democracy, with its own weapons. If democracy is so stupid as to give us free tickets and salaries for this bear's work, that is its affair. We do not come as friends, nor even as neutrals. We come as enemies. As the wolf bursts into the flock, so we come.

The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.

The truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.

The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it.

It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.

It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.

The masses need something that will give them a thrill of horror.

Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its roots in the street.

Every age that has historical status is governed by aristocracies.Aristocracy with the meaning - the best are ruling.Peoples do never govern themselves. That lunacy was concocted by liberalism. Behind its people's sovereignty the slyest cheaters are hiding, who don't want to be recognized.

The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

You have nothing to fear, if you have nothing to hide

But hopefully .....

There will come a day, when all the lies will collapse under their own weight, and truth will again triumph.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 11:32

Why did people vote for them?

Because austerity in principle sounds like its a good idea. On a personal level, living beyond your means is a sound economic principle. In theory, there should have been things that could have been trimmed and things made more efficient.

What this neglects to release is the people making the cuts are self serving, poor with numbers, budgets are fragmented so making cuts in one area don't have to take into consideration how it will cost more to another department or service, politically motivated and outsourced so that private companies have milked the system rather than elected officials taking responsibility and making the decisions themselves.

In effect, cuts actually cost MORE in the long run. So austerity doesn't work because the model is much more complex than private finances or even the finances of a business.

You can not make cuts and ration healthcare. IT DOES NOT WORK. All that happens is you end up treating sicker patients which costs more. If you do not fund mental health you end up with more people on benefits and having problems with other aspects in life such as caring for their children.

Yet no one, NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN OF ANY PARTY, has actively come out and said this.

In reality, investing and putting MORE into the right areas, would have knock on savings elsewhere by its very success.

Example: Maternal mental health. It is estimated it would cost £300million to bring services up to the minimum recommended level. This sounds a lot. Its not relatively.

Poor maternal mental health is thought to be currently costing the country in economic productiveness, social care and related health care issues £8bn a year.

Its all about simplistic thinking about solutions to complex problems.

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merrymouse · 23/11/2016 11:47

Its all about simplistic thinking about solutions to complex problems.

However, from a political point of view, people like simple solutions.

Trump and Brexit were appealing to people in 'post-industrial' towns, not because they were offering a well thought out and realistic plan, but because they were offering hope. Hope is better than nothing.

Trump is fundamentally an estate agent and knows that he can sell things by telling people what they want to hear. Don't tell somebody the realistic value of their house, get them on the books and reduce the price a few months down the line - you'll still make money even if they end up with a bad deal.

The difference is that estate agents can do well by fooling some of the people some of the time. Politicians have a lot more people to fool.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 11:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 11:58

Did we work in the same place Lurking? I suspect not, but the story is depressingly familiar.

Mistigri · 23/11/2016 11:59

I think the real Boris Johnson is an intellectual and good journalist.

I hope this was intended as a joke. An educated and clever man for sure, but an "intellectual"? Maybe I have been away from the UK for too long, but Boris would never pass as an intellectual in continental Europe.

As for "good journalist" - depends what you mean by journalist. Journalism has been so debased in the Anglosphere that I don't think we recall what good journalism is. Being good at spinning isn't good journalism. Boris is a glorified PR executive with a large ego and no conscience, and the sort of moneyed background that allows the minimally talented to secure a platform and access to the corridors of power.

whatwouldrondo · 23/11/2016 11:59

Lurking I take your point on overall population growth. I was bringing it down to the level of the flows and eddies, that we are in danger of helping along an eddy to the East.

Of course in terms of world history it could mark a return of ascendency to the East since the civilisations that emerged from the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers have arguably held sway at various points in history. The CCP think so anyway......

But then as we discussed before if Trump doesn't start a world war perhaps population will be controlled by a virus.....

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 12:06

Lets cut the bus services then centralise everything.

No issue there!

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RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 12:07

Boris is a good fiction writer.

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RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 12:09

May looks like she is struggling at PMQs AGAIN.
If this was a boxing match, Corbyn would have May up on the ropes.

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Peregrina · 23/11/2016 12:09

Lets cut the bus services then centralise everything.
Already happening.

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 12:11

I can't bear to watch PMQ's these days. Should I, just to enjoy TM's discomfort? That's not very charitable of me, is it? Just because she's a nasty so and so, doesn't mean that I have to be.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 12:11

Peregrina

If you know about metrology, then possibly yes Grin

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 12:12

Oh dear, it could have been the same place then, Lurking

amaravatti · 23/11/2016 12:14

Auschwitz where the guards found the strongest (men) had trampled on the weakest (women and children) to get as close to the fresh air at the top of the room as possible.
How dare you.
Please have some decorum sir.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 12:19

Oh Peregina I know, all too well.

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LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 12:23

Peregrina

Was your workplace a World Heritage site ?

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 12:23

amaravatti

??

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2016 12:27

In my opinion that is a very good sum up of Boris Johnson. I would add sly and shifty along with the spinning. There is a very good parliamentary committee broadcast where his eyes are sidling shiftily from side to side. With a head on questioning where he couldn't quite bury or deflect as usual, he was exposed as a complete bulsh*tter by Andrew Tyrie. Completely untroubled by any integrity or conscience.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2016 12:27

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
"For many years there has been a concern about health tourism" PM says. Note wording. She knows it is not an issue. It's about 'perception'. She always does this. When told health tourism cost just 0.01% of NHS budget she said she would "refuse to quantify" the problem.

David Firn ‏@davidfirn
@IanDunt odds that policing health tourism costs more than health tourism?

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
This is how the immigration debate becomes so insane. Politicians too cowardly to counter tabloid lies, authoritarian responses to problems which do not exist. Then one day you wake up & UK is cutting itself off from its largest market to make sure there's fewer migrants contributing to our economy. And here is the health tourism 'issue' with facts and research and all sorts of other unfashionable things

www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/heres-why-making-people-show-their-passports-to-get-nhs-trea?utm_term=.ghp86VEKD#.cfRY1vXWA

Chris Gannon ‏@KennyEvil
@IanDunt you could replace "health tourism" with "ghosts" and it would make as much sense.

POST FACT POLICY.

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Cailleach1 · 23/11/2016 12:28

I was referring to Mistigirl's sum up.

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