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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
merrymouse · 23/11/2016 08:41

What was the point of austerity ffs

Exactly.

If the Conservatives apparently weren't actually that bothered about austerity goals what was the point?

prettybird · 23/11/2016 08:58

There is an economic argument that challenges the basis of the need for austerity (the paper that argued for it, which said that high levels of debt resulted in low growth was based on a mistake, which excluded the countries that demonstrated otherwise Shock)

The counter argument is that austerity actually lowers growth, suppressing demand, reducing tax intake, and actually ends up needing more borrowing as a percentage of GDP. That the trickle down effect doesn't work. Sad - and all that ends up is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer Angry strange that Hmm

Figmentofmyimagination · 23/11/2016 09:00

www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n21/contents

Not sure this has worked - trying to post a link to an interesting piece - 'Home Office Rules' in the latest lrb.

InformalRoman · 23/11/2016 09:09

Justin King, ex CEO of Sainsbury's, predicting a 5% rise in food prices over the next 6 months:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38074616

morningrunner · 23/11/2016 09:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 09:20

I sense that some European politicians are quite enjoying the game of "brexit means brexit ... Doesn't it?". And they are better at it than David and Johnson, if only because they can all do it in at least three languages.

I know facts are so 20th century when it comes to Brexit, but I have to correct you. Boris Johnson can speak French and Italian (his Latin and ancient Greek are better than mine) - and although he may not be able to speak German, he can understand it spoken.

I know this because I saw the (admittedly very interesting documentary) "Boris Johnson: Dreams of Rome" back in 2006.

An awful lot of Boris watchers either forget - or never knew - how capable an "intellectual" he is. It's a shame he went into politics.

His documentary on the rise of Islam was also very good.

And it's worth remembering that he suggested non-muslims try sharing parts of Ramadan, rather than carping from the sides.

You have to wonder, who is the real Boris Johnson ?

And he's an engaging writer ..

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 09:32

What was the point of austerity

Austerity was a godsend to the people it would never affect. It finally allowed them to indulge in their - suspiciously Onanistic - fantasy of being able to impose their morality on the lower orders without any comeback. Or rather with the retort "It's austerity. We're all in it together."

This is why it was pointless to attack austerity measures - e.g. Bedroom Tax - on the grounds they weren't saving money. They were never intended too. They were just one way of ensuring the rabble learned their place.

How else can you characterise the misogynistic limit o child benefits ...

TRIGGER TRIGGER TRIGGER

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/thousands-sign-petition-to-scrap-tories-child-benefit-rape-clause-a6819111.html

there is a point at which being a Tory and being a woman are mutually exclusive. Mrs Thatcher hated working women, as does Theresa May. The only thing they want to be easy for working women is to give up and become SAHM like the pictures in her childrens books. Look out for tax cuts on pipes and slippers though.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 09:33

There is an economic argument that challenges the basis of the need for austerity

There's a moral argument that austerity teaches the working classes their place.

Guess which argument the Tories follow.

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 09:50

Guess which argument the Tories follow.
Why do so many people vote for them?

whatwouldrondo · 23/11/2016 09:50

Figment Thank you for the interesting link . One of the frustrating things about May is that it is hard to discern any coherence in what she says and does other than to assume it is all short term and in the interests of staying in power, and the actions of an unimaginative bureaucrat but this made a lot of sense.

"It seems likely that the state will start performing acts of conservative discrimination which historically have been performed by way of cultural capital and softer forms of power. An example of how deranged the consequences can be is Nick Timothy’s suggestion that work visas be granted only to foreign students at Oxbridge and Russell Group universities. Policy-makers may form their ideas on the basis of what goes down well in the pubs of Dorset, the comment pages of the Daily Mail or the working men’s clubs of Scarborough, but snobbery and chippiness are more troubling when they are converted into the printed word of the statute book.

It sounds as if the ‘protective state’ is ready to discriminate, and won’t be ashamed to admit it. It will discriminate regarding good and bad economic activity; it will discriminate between good and bad migrants; it will discriminate between good and bad ways of life. May is not afraid of sorting the wheat from the chaff. This may be the reason grammar schools symbolise something important for her, regardless of the evidence against their efficacy. In that respect, there is some continuity with neoliberalism, which sought to divide ‘winners’ from ‘losers’ in a range of different tests and competitive arenas. The key difference is that neoliberalism uses rivalry itself to identify the worthy. The neoliberal state offers no view on what a good company or school or artist looks like. Instead, it uses rankings, contests and markets in order to find out who rises to the top. The question any neoliberal – or liberal for that matter – might now want to ask May is this: on what basis do you distinguish the worthy from the unworthy? Are we now simply to be driven by the contingency of biography, where Timothy is fuelled by the anger he felt as a lower-middle-class boy in Erdington in the early 1990s, or May is guided by the example of her Anglican clergyman father? Is the fact that liberals haven’t experienced being the victim of regular petty crime or a failing school now going to be the principal basis for ignoring them?"

whatwouldrondo · 23/11/2016 09:55

I think the real Boris Johnson is an intellectual and good journalist. It is just a shame that his ambitions were forged in ivory towers where academia and the pages of the Daily Telegraph were not enough, and the political just a game.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 10:03

Why do so many people vote for them?

Because most people don't think. That's not a snidey remark, just the truth.

Most people that vote (remember 1 in 3 don't) have a tribal "I'm a true blue Tory" or "I'm Labour till I die" approach to where they put their Xs. Generally they can be (and are) safely ignored by their respective parties. After all if somebody says they would only vote Labour, why bother wooing them ?

Also, most people have only a vague idea of how politics works. This thread is the exception. Despite having a vote - and using it to vote Labour - my MiL couldn't really grasp that it was Labour in power 1997-2010. When the benefit shake up (removal of IB introduction of ESA) was detailed in 2008, she kept on saying "it's the Tories" even though it was a Labour government. The closest I could get to a glimpse as to the thought processes was that "cuts could only be Tories".

Somewhere - maybe in Surrey - is her Tory voting nemesis. In normal times they happily cancel each other out, and the minority of thinking voters can decide the outcome.

As we are discovering, times are not normal. It's a delayed fin-de-siecle Sad

prettybird · 23/11/2016 10:07

I agree LurkingHusband.

And even though the two Harvard profs have re-worked their research, so that it now only shows a bit of a link rather than the dramatic conclusions they had previously shown (and they also dispute that they proved causality, just demonstrated an association), the political Hawks used it exactly the way you say: to keep the little people in their place Hmm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22223190 - article about the students who discovered the error.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 10:16

It is very hard to support universal suffrage sometimes.

I have absolutely no idea how a jet airliner works. Therefore it seems eminently sensible that (a) I not be allowed anywhere near the controls and (b) we have mechanisms to enforce that situation.

Yet we allow people who have no idea how a country works to take the controls once every five years, under the guise of "democracy" (which incidentally did not mean one-man-one-vote in it's ancient Greek incarnation). An out-of-control country is a lot more dangerous than an out of control airliner.

MrsLH underwent more rigourous checking to be able to user her powerchair on the local bus than she has ever had before voting.

This isn't a call for some sort of voter qualification. It is however an observation that when the votes are being wielded by the ignorant and the wicked with no discrimination, the best thing all round is to ensure that each vote is worthless and counts for nothing.

Oh look, its 2016 !

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 10:16

Why do so many people vote for them?

Centrists are put off by extremes on either sides, but given a choice will probably vote 'competent' Tory over 'shambolic' labour.

However, I think it's interesting that although we have had 6 years of Tories in power, only 1 of those has been with an elected prime minister not in coalition. Compare that to 12 years of labour. If TB can't hold it together, are they really competent?

Maybe yes compared to Corbyn, but Corbyn won't be the opposition for ever.

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 10:17

TM not TB!!!!!!!

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 10:20

Next question is, 'how do the Tories get away with the idea that they are 'Competent'. May's government is anything but.

Peregrina · 23/11/2016 10:24

Another question I have is: the argument can be put forward that you can spend your way out of recession. Does this only work when we manufacture our own goods? Does it work when so many goods are imported? It's a long, long time since I studied economics, so I no longer feel that I have the understanding that I once claimed to have.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 10:26

Next question is, 'how do the Tories get away with the idea that they are 'Competent'. May's government is anything but.

It's meme. Like "Marks and Spencer=affordable quality", "Champagne=posh" ...

I'm starting to develop a theory that if you a lie big enough, and tell it often enough, people will believe it.

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 10:26

*Next question is, 'how do the Tories get away with the idea that they are 'Competent'.

Posh voices?

It depends who you are comparing them to though. They won a lot of points for the way they handled their leadership election. The Labour leaders still look as though they would rather be shouting "Thatcher, Thatcher, Thatcher, out, out, out" at demonstrations than actually governing.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2016 10:32

Another question I have is: the argument can be put forward that you can spend your way out of recession.

If you accept that the worst thing that can happen in any economy is money stops moving, then it makes sense. You pump money in as government which then circulates and keeps the extremities alive.

Sort of fiscal CPR Grin.

Of course further down the line, someone has to honour those cheques ....

Global economics is a bit fucked, right now. No one anywhere seems to be saying the **ing obvious which is permanent growth is impossible when sitting on a planet with finite resources. Until someone articulates that, and convinces us to stop breeding, lines on graphs will have to cross somewhere.

Incidentally, if we really wanted to show our overlords who's boss, we'd stop having children.

merrymouse · 23/11/2016 10:33

This covers the main economic theories in an easy to read style.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0349138931/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0K8H5NH95Q6ZCE9EBAY8

Tim Harford: the undercover economist strikes back.

whatwouldrondo · 23/11/2016 11:04

Lurking Is there not another layer to that as well? That the part of the planet (the developed west ) that has enjoyed growth and a greater share of prosperity, must expect that to come under pressure as average incomes increase in the growing developing economies? Where average incomes have declined in the west largely as a result of the financial crisis, the upward trend has continued in the developing countries.

Although in theory the West can continue to prosper by exploiting a growing world economy by exploiting its competitive advantage e.g. in innovation, science and technology, but will it do so in the face of events like the financial crisis, Brexit and Trump......