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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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13
pasdutout · 21/11/2016 11:04

what is the Jawss* comment about?

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 11:05

Propaganda?!

I have truly entered the twilight zone.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 11:06

"at a glance it looks like 'jawsS'." how very odd. i have seen her username over and over and not once thought the 5 was an s. and if i had i would have never even associated it with SS Sad

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 11:07

Well, neither would I have associated it with SS until she specifically mentioned it a few posts back.
Confused

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 11:07

Look mango I hid that thread as it was upsetting me, so I'm not going to go and see who it was, exactly. I know that bored said something awful to me personally about me and my son pity the generation they have spawned. Disgusting. And you all cheered.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 11:08

you would;t consider it propaganda if you are sufficiently biased.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 11:08

'You all cheered'.

No.
Not true.

SapphireStrange · 21/11/2016 11:09

What does anyone with an insight into science work and funding think of today's news that May is to pledge an extra £2bn a year for scientific research and development projects in the UK?

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 11:10

Fine mango I expect to be left alone from now on.

twofingerstoGideon · 21/11/2016 11:11

And how can you say you love the UK yet diminish it so?

isn't this saying critiquing the UK government is unpatriotic?

Yes, it's on a par with 'talking the country down' and other such nonsense. It's the same level of playground comment that we saw after the referendum ("If you love the EU so much, why don't you move there then?") It never seems to occur to people who come out with drivel like this, that not wanting your country to jump off a cliff is perhaps a more patriotic stance to take and may demonstrate more 'love' - to use Mango's word - for the UK and all its citizens.

Peregrina · 21/11/2016 11:13

.....today's news that May is to pledge an extra £2bn a year for scientific research and development projects in the UK?

It needs more than money - it needs FoM to put the best research teams together, unless you are happy to staff projects with people just because they are British, not because they are best qualified.

I suspect it's only pledging what is already in the pipeline, but I haven't read the details.

PattyPenguin · 21/11/2016 11:14

I do wish some people would get it into their heads that being realistic about a country's current situation and its prospects in the world as it exists now is not "diminishing it" or "talking it down" - it's being honest and sensible.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 11:15

" It never seems to occur to people who come out with drivel like this, that not wanting your country to jump off a cliff is perhaps a more patriotic stance to take and may demonstrate more 'love'"

i feel patriotic in the way you describe two

OP posts:
BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 11:37

Jaws It was me who thought your username was otherwise, I misread it and was offended by it, perhaps because I am Jewish. I apologise. I am not bullying you however, I am disagreeing with your views and challenging them. And my recall of the conversation where you introduced your sons views differs from how you have related it. But if it pleases you I will not comment on your posts.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 11:43

bored just unhid that thread and what I quoted ("pity the generation they have spawned" "that was to Jaws") is literally what you wrote directed at me. I think it's unacceptable. My username is clearly Jaws5. As in the 5th, non-existent 5th sequel to Jaws film.

BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 11:57

Jaws, as is your right. I however cannot read your user name without seeing a double s but that is my problem and I will try not to read it at all from now.

NotDavidTennant · 21/11/2016 12:34

For most of human history, Britain was a backwater on the fringes of a fairly unremarkable part of the Eurasian landmass. It's only with the last few centuries that Britain has become a major player on the world stage, and there's no reason why we won't eventually go back to being a global backwater again.

I think if the British people were to take this long-term historical view, instead of only focusing on recent glories, then we might start acting with some humility in global affairs, instead of feeling like the EU (and the world at large) owes us some kind of special treatment.

BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 12:54

David I don't think leavers think the EU owe them any special treatment at all, apart from cutting them loose. Many will sacrifice a drop in GDP and living standards and transitional turmoil. My only hope would be for the UK to reach its potential once out of the EU, whatever its future shape was.

Mistigri · 21/11/2016 12:56

I would be pleased to see some leave voices on here if only we could keep the discussion polite and substantive - which tbf bored was doing, others less so.

It's a shame you can't mute on here, because there is no point in engaging with people who don't debate honestly. Could we get back on topic?

Re the scouts, aren't they a liberal tree-huggy organisation these days? The international sort are anyway. It's a shame if it's true that Baden Powell's memory has been tarnished by something he said in his dotage.

Re the French elections, I am feeling a little more comfortable now Sarkozy is out of the running. Press here seems to think it's good news for Macron if the RW candidate isn't Juppé. Either way we should get a second round that pitches a centre or centre right candidate against the extreme right - rather than extreme right against even more extreme right.

We have another court date for our various citizenship procedures tomorrow. Good thing for me that my employer is also somewhat stuffed by brexit, and employs lots of EU citizens, so is very reasonable about time off.

SapphireStrange · 21/11/2016 12:58

Thanks Peregrina. And thanks Red for the new thread.

Motheroffourdragons · 21/11/2016 12:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 12:59

I've just heard on the news that French police have foiled another terrorist plotSad
Thank God.

Mistigri · 21/11/2016 13:02

The reality is that a few crazed but noisy ideologues, and some very rich people who stand to benefit personally, will be prepared to sacrifice trade and GDP per capita for a hard brexit.

All the evidence suggests that most leave voters are not happy to make personal financial sacrifices in the pursuit of a hard brexit.

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