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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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Mistigri · 20/11/2016 16:19

RTB my kids are French so brexit doesn't affect them and they can still move, but unfortunately their third language is spanish not german.

DH and I would need to complete our French naturalisation processes first, so we don't lose residency rights here.

SwedishEdith · 20/11/2016 16:21

I presume this is connected to why they're estranged - usual story of dodgy funds, hypocrisy and an attempt to rebrand the party.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-far-right-leader-jean-marie-le-pen-accused-of-holding-14m-in-undeclared-swiss-bank-account-10211028.html

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 16:31

This article is an interesting read. Some of it hard to believe. The Le Pen story reminds me of the Trump/Farage sagas. People who don't know how to behave with decency or respect.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/08/frances-front-national-plunged-into-family-feud-over-holocaust-remarks

lalalonglegs · 20/11/2016 16:41

Which brings us neatly onto Tony Blair's comeback which is being widely reported in today's papers (this from the Independent):

The controversial former Prime Minister is engineering a comeback because he feels he can fill a political vacuum caused by Theresa May being a “light weight” and Jeremy Corbyn being a “nutter”, The Sunday Times reports. A source said Mr Blair is sourcing premises near Westminster in order to relocate 130 staff to the UK’s political hub.

I would welcome literally anyone at the moment who I thought might have a chance of bringing the government to its senses... but I'm not sure that Blair is the man to fill that role. It will just further divide the left and give the Tories some breathing space in the process.

SwedishEdith · 20/11/2016 16:55

Thanks Hester. This stood out for me. M Le Pen surely knows her father's views and yet still joined the party.

"The Socialist party leader, Jean-Christophe Cambadélis, told RTL radio: “Jean-Marie Le Pen says out loud what numerous FN senior party figures, activists and even voters think ... Behind all this, there’s also a political debate. Should they keep their far-right specificity or hide it to win elections? Marine Le Pen has chosen to hide it, Jean-Marie Le Pen has chosen to affirm it. I’ll leave that debate up to them.”

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 17:10

Can't disagree with Tony Blair's comments about Corbyn, but he's too kind to Theresa May, who is bigotted and stubborn. It's going to be very hard to overlook his behaviour on Iraq.

SwedishEdith · 20/11/2016 17:13

Agree, he's the wrong person. Right argument and it needs a good orator (he is) but too much baggage.

Motheroffourdragons · 20/11/2016 17:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 17:21

Agreed about TB, he'd get shouted down by detractors as someone who could be dishonest. A good orator is needed. Someone with charisma, yet obvious integrity. Is there such a person?

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 17:34

Jaws, I'm not German. Nor do I have German blood. However my grandfather's third wife was German and to all intents and purposes she was my grandmother. I didn't know her well and only saw her half a dozen or so times as my Grandfather settled in West Germany, and my parents simply couldn't afford to go and see them more than twice, but she's still important to me.

She barely spoke a word of English, but I feel obliged to make sure her story and family history is passed on, as she regarded us as her family and had no children of her own. Her father fought in the army and therefore was a Nazi by definition, but his story is heart breaking. As is her mothers and her own. I think Brits just think as Germans in WWII as somehow purely inhuman rather than just ordinary people in so many cases. That's the trouble. There is no connection just this glorification of our role in the war.

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twofingerstoGideon · 20/11/2016 17:55

I don't think TB is right, either. Apart from his dishonesty, the Chilcot Report etc., the fact that he's worth around £27million would just fuel that tedious rhetoric about 'lefty/liberal elites', which so many of us are heartily sick of.
I'm a formerly homeless, lowish-waged single parent and have had it up to the back teeth with the 'moaning elite' bullshit.

LurkingHusband · 20/11/2016 18:11

Anti-metric campaigners hope UK imperial road signs are now safe

I posted very soon after the vote (it may have been in chat, so lost) that there would be a pointless (and expensive) anti-metric push.

A lot of Leavers (and some Remainers) said I was being silly as no one had mentioned anything about metrication ...

Now they have.

Let's watch in disbelief, as people try and saddle commerce with parallel measuring systems.

Remind me, apart from the US (and we have nothing to export to them) who else in the world trades in metric ?

One of my areas of expertise is metrology, so the more work the better ....

whatwouldrondo · 20/11/2016 18:15

An interesting factor in the North /South divide. www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/nov/19/brain-drain-southward-310000-graduates-left-north-ten-years?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I think this has been going on a lot longer than ten years. It might have been different if I had gone to a northern university but as a northerner I do not know any graduates who remained in or returned North. Literally none across the last forty years. Everybody I know was sucked South East even if they were in occupations like teaching that were not part of the economic changes that happened across the country. I spent the first ten years of my working career trying to get back but always the opportunities were so much more lucrative and the centre of gravity for our friendship networks were also in the south , or indeed overseas, even though it was so much cheaper, and the quality of life better in the north. It is still the case with my DD's graduate peers.

I do not know how you address this, I am not sure it is a matter of transport connections.

jaws5 · 20/11/2016 18:17

red absolutely agree with Brits just think as Germans in WWII as somehow purely inhuman rather than just ordinary people in so many cases. I have noticed that thinking many times in British people, but interestingly not un my father in law, who fought in WWII and realised that German soldiers were just as scared as he was, saw it first hand many times. But I've always been shocked at the "bloody Germans" rhetoric and that's escalated recently since the ref. campaign. I don't think many people are aware of just how progressive and modern many sections of German society were before Nazism poison everything. Equally in Spain, were divorce was legalised in 1931, for example liberal ideas were championed in the 30s, until the civil war destroyed the country -- and intellectuals were persecuted or left en masse.

jaws5 · 20/11/2016 18:21

I find it very courageous, the way these two countries have dealt with their history and how the now come last in the "authoritarian populism" popularity chart posted up thread.

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 18:37

jaws5 totally agree. Makes you wonder if something horrendous has to happen before people realise.

amaravatti · 20/11/2016 18:51

www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-tweets-gen-james-mad-dog-mattis-leading-contender-secretary-n686411

R4 news ran that he had been confirmed as secretary of state at 6pm but I can't find it confirmed anywhere else.

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 18:52

I don't think many people are aware of just how progressive and modern many sections of German society were before Nazism poison everything.

Yes, a thousand times, and squandered for about three generations.

That's why it worries me a little when people say that education is the key, because being well educated did not save the Germans. Realising that yes, they are human like us, with the same hopes and fears and dreams for the future may be the way to go. Hence all the postwar twinning associations.

There is, (or was, not been recently) a good exhibition about the Battle of Britain at the RAF Museum in Hendon. It talks about the build up to the war. One thing which struck me forcefully was how the Nazis took over youth organisations and turned them into Hitler Youth ones - imagine today sending our children to cubs or brownies and finding that they are going to be indoctrinated into fascism.

amaravatti · 20/11/2016 18:55

Secretary of Defence, whoops

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 19:11

Peregrina I agree. Education is crucial, but a certain type of education. Philosophy is key in enabling children to think critically, says the President of Ireland, Michael D Higgins:

"A new politics of fear, resentment and prejudice against those who are not ‘like us’ requires the capacity to critique, which an early exposure to the themes and methods of philosophy can bring...It is so important, then, that our children - all of our citizens - be encouraged to think critically rather than merely reproduce the information pushed towards them by proliferating media sources."
“It is so important, too, that they learn to articulate their thoughts and provide justifications for them, and that they find ways of disagreeing without resorting to violence, whether verbal or physical.”
"He added: “I believe that those virtues of reflection, of critical reasoning and of ethical enquiry are ones that have gained renewed urgency in the present moment, as humanity is faced with unprecedented challenges of a global kind - from climate change to mass migration."

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teach-philosophy-to-heal-our-post-truth-society-says-president-higgins-1.2875247?utm_content=sf-man

(I knew nothing about the President of Ireland before today. It seems rather good to have a President who is a 'politician, poet, sociologist, author and broadcaster' (Wikipedia). And who values philosophy.)

Bananagio · 20/11/2016 19:23

Agree rtb and jaws. One thing I find particularly disturbing with the whole Brexit saga is the ease in which people generalize and apply stereotypes to define huge groups of people. Be that 'continentals', 'liberal elites', 'lefties', 'southern Europeans', "thick leavers', "xenophobic little englanders",'moaning remainers' "immigrants", "refugees" etc. I'll be honest and initially in my anger at the result and how it affects me personally I have been guilty of a few of these. But unless we all stop with the generalizing and start listening and trying to understand and find out a solution that is acceptable to the widest possible majority then we are really buggered! Having had months of being asked what the hell the Brits are thinking of by people here in Italy from the local barman, to the man I buy fruit from, to ds's teachers to friends and family I am feeling the frustration of having huge assumptions being made about me on the basis of my nationality! And then I go online and I see a lot of people in the U.K. assume people in my situation must be privileged and smug and hate pubs Hmm and hate my country due to the fact I live outside the U.K. Generalizing like this has always been there (can't tell you how many times Italians have said to me in my time here that I didn't seem typically English as I wasn't 'cold')Hmm but the frightening thing now is that these stereotypes are now being used to give weight to political and nationalistic beliefs. And the depersonalising of large groups of people to achieve an end result is never going to end well is it.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 19:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3954508/The-worrying-rise-Britain-s-modern-day-Hitler-youth-Neo-Nazi-referrals-Government-s-deradicalisation-programme-overtaking-Islamist-extremism-cases-parts-UK.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
The worrying rise of Britain's modern day 'Hitler youth': Neo-Nazi referrals to the Government's deradicalisation programme are overtaking Islamist extremism cases in parts of the UK

Almost 300 children referred to the authorities for far-right extremism
Of those, 16 were children under the age of 10 according to new figures
Security minister Ben Wallace said he has seen a growth in far-right cases
Comes amid outrage in Liverpool over 'Naxi-controlled zone' stickers

Yes. This is THE DAILY MAIL.

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BoredofBrexit · 20/11/2016 19:42

Why don't we have a 'things in common' thread then? RTB, do not want to hijack. Would you like to set it up and port this across? I'll start:
I'm a Leave voter and I love the UK, love our cultural diversity, am clear that we need immigration, lots of it but would like to be able to set flexible and market driven levels and criteria as a nation. I'm not bound to a political ideology in fact right now I am all over the place. I do want a good economic future for our nation but I would like it to be freed from governance by the EU. I'd prefer if the split was not acrimonious and that we, as part of Europe could continue in a neighbourly, supportive way to our neighbours. I believe in us. I want the chance to forge a future from my children, as part of Europe but governed from within.
No critique please, just state your wishes. Somewhere down the line we can see if there is a consensus.

SwedishEdith · 20/11/2016 20:02

"One thing which struck me forcefully was how the Nazis took over youth organisations and turned them into Hitler Youth ones - imagine today sending our children to cubs or brownies and finding that they are going to be indoctrinated into fascism."

OK, I may be being a little alarmist here, but is that not one of the potential problems with free schools? Quick google finds www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/accelerated-christian-education-christian-fundamentalist-schools-are-teaching-girls-they-must-obey-a7066751.html

HyacinthFuckit · 20/11/2016 20:07

If you have a look at the comments section whatwouldrondo you'll see the maths in the article leaves a lot to be desired! I agree we need more investment, and it's not in our interests as a society for everything to be so SE centric, but the brain drain they mention isn't really happening.