Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:36

i much prefer jaws version fwiw.

missmoon · 21/11/2016 10:37

At what point did the EU 27 say "No" to our "we're leaving"? I must have missed that. Are they not letting us go?

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:37

mango if you think the past doesn't shape today's politics and vies you are mistaken. sorry.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:37

bored would you mind stopping? Every time I post something you attack me personally and I'm getting fed up. Quite nasty.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:39

You too mango. Jaws5 seems to be the only one that continually bangs on about the empire, too???
What are you talking about? You two are bullying me.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:41

Jaws didn't you know that worrying about the impact of brexit and criticising the government's ways of handling 'it' is unpatriotic, treason even? And being concerned about science? Funding? Research? Come off it you liberal elite!! Sad

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 10:42

Bullying?!

Report it then.

missmoon · 21/11/2016 10:42

Just to add, there seems to be some confusion as to what the Article 50 process entails. It is just a procedure for leaving. We've said we are leaving, and the so-called negotiations are just about tying up loose ends (e.g., who pays for the pensions of UK workers who worked for the EU institutions). There is no room here for pulling one over the EU 27. We're going, and that's that.

The second stage is whether we replace the existing relationship with a new deal. Here there might be some negotiations, but essentially the EU 27 have the upper hand. There is very little for us to hide, we have been jointly negotiating trade deals for 40 years, they know all about us, our economy, industrial structure, red lines etc. The EU 27 will essentially decide amongst themselves what they want to offer us, and we will either have to accept whatever deal they offer, or leave with nothing. We need them more than they need us, that's what it comes down to.

Plus, as others have said, the EU 27 want to stop the EU from unravelling, so the deal will not be better than what we have now. It's got nothing to do with being mean, it's all about doing what's best for them, given their political and economic constraints.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:45

I think it was one of you two, or perhaps both, who mocked my son in the other thread and called me JawSS. I will report you next time.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:47

i have been folioing the threads with much admiration for months. I don't get the "what we have in common thread though--. people talking positively even admiringly about milo and breitbart, no nothing in common i'm pleased to report. I did think Cathy Newman interviewing Milo Yiannopoulos was quite good www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/cathy-newman-hailed-after-skewering-rightwing-provocateur-milo-yiannopoulos-on-channel-4-news-a3398876.html

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 10:47

And Jaws5 seems to be the only one that continually bangs on about the empire, too.

I think we had a whole discussion about Baden Powell and nationalism a few pages back. Also the concept that there is something about being British that would intrinsically stop us from being susceptible to extremist movements.

I am sure the empire has been brought up many times on these threads, not least because as well as America, we are supposed to have a 'special relationship' with the commonwealth.

As a stickler for facts, it wasn't jaws who brought up the empire in the last few posts.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:48

Jaws definitely report Thanks i thought mango was rather out of line.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:51

pasduout I agree about the "things in common" thread. I have also noticed how much air time is being devoted to extreme right wing agents provocateurs like MY, the latest fascist pinup boy.

borntobequiet · 21/11/2016 10:51

Towards the end of this thread, thanks again. These threads have kept me informed and involved when otherwise I'd probably have opted out of thinking about the issues around Brexit at all, finding the whole thing too depressing.
On a lighter note, Radio 4's Analysis programme last night (listened to on a long nighttime drive home) informed me that other countries have their own expressions for "have your cake and eat it". The best was I think the Czech Republic with "make your bed and die in it" (unless I misheard).

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 10:52

I think it was one of you two, or perhaps both, who mocked my son in the other thread and called me JawSS. I will report you next time.

Your son was not 'mocked'.

And don't attribute things to me that are not a true representation.

If you think I'm a 'bully' then report me.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:53

Thanks pasduout and merry Smile

Peregrina · 21/11/2016 10:55

"Can't we use mediation & find some compromises for an amicable break up"

So we have Johnson as Foreign Secretary, who appears to take a delight in insulting as many nations as possible.

I was the one who brought up the Empire this time, and I think it does influence some politician's thinking. They haven't fully woken up to the fact that it's well and truly gone. Ditto, the 'Special Relationship', which never was, or only in so far as which US war have we got to support now.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:56

Yes mango, he was. "Did you son's research also include HC?" Or similar, after I said he'd just seen DT on tv, and he's at primary school. Then quite a few posts about me being a bad parent, Tec. Appalling.

Bearbehind · 21/11/2016 10:57

I took a bit of a break from these threads but thought I'd have a look in now.

It's really quite disturbing how the prolific Leavers are dominating all the threads on here now and just grinding everyone else down.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:59

Also, I have made explained on several posts that I'm a EU national, so I could be German. But I was still called JawSS on several occasions.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 11:01

Jaws5, I will repeat:

I did not at any point 'mock your son'.

borntobequiet · 21/11/2016 11:01

Bear, you're right. However when threads are on an even keel with balanced contributions, they are still very good. I hope the esteemed RTB feels up to carrying on.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 11:03

what' si stye Jawss comment about? is it implying that your views are 'nazi' or 'vicious'? if yes then it is indeed bullying as in name calling.

bear
"It's really quite disturbing how the prolific Leavers are dominating all the threads on here now and just grinding everyone else down." yes i agree with this. but the people who are fighting 'cause' will go to great lengths to spread their propaganda.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 11:04

mobile.twitter.com/Law_and_policy

I'm posting a link to David Allen Green to rebalance the karma.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 11:04

Wrt the JawsSS thing, I don't think I have done that?

Your username does look very much like it though - at a glance it looks like 'jawsS'.

However, I would not ever deliberately put SS as that is a shitty thing to do.

Swipe left for the next trending thread