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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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amaravatti · 20/11/2016 22:25

Interesting, red I didn't know all that. I'm jealous of your knowledge of your family history! Mine's a mystery.
If ordinary people carry on trying to do be kind in groups like the scouts, all will be well. In fact if everyone does that as much as we can, it will be ok.
My MIL was a holocaust survivor. Born the same year as Anne Frank in Germany. By a circuitous route ended up in London in the1950s.
One thing I remember her own MIL telling me was that many German Jews said: 'But how could this happen? We have always lived here, these are our neighbours.' It was so mundane and administrative the way the screws tightened on German Jewish society. We lost many family members who simply could not believe that the threat to them was so imminent. And by the way, the genuine thanks that the Jewish community feel for safe refuge here is immense. In synagogues and at family occasions, 'God save the Queen' is sung.
So it's just the mundane or not so mundane losses of freedom and challenges to democracy and civil society, which you have documented here brilliantly we need to note, and try to take action on.

mathanxiety · 20/11/2016 23:30

I think the point about Baden Powell and Nazi youth movements (and other youth movements in Germany and elsewhere in Europe at the same time) is that while the same admiration for various values and personal attributes was present in many societies, the end result of encouraging youth to have a strong group identity - whether with the group or the wider nation/state - and to encourage physical fitness, or a link to nature, etc. wasn't the same everywhere. In some places there were other values to militate against the extremes to which the Nazis took Germany, such as a strong service-to-the-community ethos in various groups, or simply a general reverence among youth for personal autonomy and strong individual inclination towards rule breaking.

I think it must also be said that we do history a disservice if we imagine that our understanding of the terms liberal and progressive can be applied to societies of the past. Most western societies were characterised by a degree whether strong or weak of anti-Semitism and nationalism, and assumptions of 'national characteristics' or national personalities or types went unchallenged.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 08:29

MangoMoon
"However, following the news that the EU feel that we need to be forced into hard Brexit to dissuade other EU countries from getting ideas re leaving, my mind has changed somewhat.
Rather than thinking 'oh my gosh, that's not good', I am being pushed further toward 'fuck them, hard Brexit it is then'."

I saw the headline on one of the more unsavoury news site. Do you realise it is T May who says she wants a 'hard' brexit ("Brexit means Brexit")

You cannot seriously not see that this headline is an outrageous spin where the nationalistic news source aka DM is spinning a narrative of victim hood "poor us the bad bad EU is forcing a hard brexit on us" Hmm but it has been the leave lobby and Sun, DM etc. that wanted a hard brexit. Remain has indeed warned that there is not going to be picking and choosing. Remember all the "can't have your cake and eat it comments? Leavers voted to get out and getting out has always meant loosing our privileges within the EU.

Based on comments such as yours MangoMoon I believe the brainwashing process has been completed Sad.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 08:48

You cannot seriously not see that this headline is an outrageous spin where the nationalistic news source aka DM is spinning a narrative of victim hood "poor us the bad bad EU is forcing a hard brexit on us" Hmm

Was in the observer & the guardian as well as the express & the mail if that helps with the humphy face?

Based on comments such as yours MangoMoon I believe the brainwashing process has been completed .

How ridiculous.
An overemotive comment without substance & a sad face.
Give me strength.

BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 08:50

Thing is it's only a (predominantly, for the pedants) Remain view that there is a cake, let alone one that anyone would want to eat.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 08:52

mango you do realise that leavers voted for brexit? why should the eu pander to us? we wanted out, we get 'out'. stop blaming any ill effects on the EU Confused.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 08:54

From warincontext.org (also widely quoted across other news sources):

"...One top EU diplomat told the Observer: “If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement, the only way to deal with Brexit is hard Brexit. Otherwise we would be seen to be giving in to a country that is leaving. That would be fatal.”..."

"We would be seen to be giving in"
How bizarre that a supposedly voluntary alliance of nations has a notion that they 'mustn't give in' and allow countries to leave Confused

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 08:57

I'm not 'blaming ill effects on the EU' - do you read everything with a special filter pasdutout?
One which changes what people actually say to what you want them to have said?

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 09:02

it's as 'voluntary' as any business agreement. you enter it voluntarily but are bound by contracts. if you end the contract and want different terms you cannot expect the other party to bend over backwards to accommodate you just cos you want it to happen. in this case the other party consists of 27 countries, we are one. we haven't got the strongest hand i'm afraid.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 09:15

"My husband wants a divorce but he'd like to continue having sex, also wants to have the children every weekend but doesn't want to pay maintenance. He says he wants his cake and eat it, when I said he can't, he accussed me of being vindictive and tells everyone that's why he left me"

twofingerstoGideon · 21/11/2016 09:18

If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement, the only way to deal with Brexit is hard Brexit. Otherwise we would be seen to be giving in to a country that is leaving. That would be fatal.

Given that FOM is one of the four key principles of the EU, I don't see what is so outrageous about saying a rejection of FOM would mean a hard Brexit.

How bizarre that a supposedly voluntary alliance of nations has a notion that they 'mustn't give in' and allow countries to leave

You are being disingenuous. They aren't saying they're 'not allowing' us to leave at all. They are saying we can't leave on favourable terms, picking and choosing what we want.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 09:30

I think there is a mistaken belief that it is possible to do some kind of hard Brexit flounce.

Without the ability to depart for another planet, we

HyacinthFuckit · 21/11/2016 09:30

I find it a touch ridiculous to be quibbling over whether the EU is behaving ethically wrt Brexit. It hardly matters. The salient issue isn't whether they're being Very Naughty. It's the extent to which we're going to be lumbered with said naughtiness. Plenty of us who were Remain don't think the EU is some particularly marvellous and benevolent institution, just as there are Leavers who are very pro-Europe in principle but had an objection to some particular aspect. The EU politicos are behaving exactly as I expected them to.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 09:32

Oops!

We can't avoid continued negotiations and legal agreements with Europe.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 09:33

The EU politicos are behaving exactly as I expected them to.

Yes, in their own interests.

That is how negotiations with other countries work. As you say, it isn't a case of naughty it nice.

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 09:38

jaws Grin

Peregrina · 21/11/2016 09:41

As for Hard Brexit, we have spent 43 years whining and whining about wanting our own way, rather than saying "we are part of this, how do we promote the good of all"? So in the end our partners have lost patience and said, 'go on then'. And we start whinging again, "oh it's not fair, they are being mean to us, they won't let us have our cake and eat it".

missmoon · 21/11/2016 09:42

EU 27 politicians and diplomats doing what's best for their country / party / own political career shocker! That wasn't predictable at all, was it? Hmm

Peregrina · 21/11/2016 09:50

EU 27 politicians and diplomats doing what's best for their country / party / own political career shocker!

Ah but you see, we are Special - we had the Empire on which the sun never set.

jaws5 · 21/11/2016 10:05

Ah but you see, we are Special - we had the Empire on which the sun never set Exactly that! The continuous talk of having a "leading role in Europe and the world" is tiresome, silly and deluded.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 10:10

Not so much special as apparently bumbling enough to have a referendum that would leave politicians trying to negotiate a settlement in which they have no strong belief on behalf of a populace who weren't enabled to express a clear opinion.

Nobody knows why remainers or leavers voted or what they want or even if they understood the question.

The only sensible answer to EU, yes or no is 'what do you mean?'.

BoredofBrexit · 21/11/2016 10:22

Jaws it tends to be you fretting about no longer having a leading role, in all your science and research posts. Make your mind up. And how can you say you love the UK yet diminish it so?

pasdutout · 21/11/2016 10:27

And how can you say you love the UK yet diminish it so?

isn't this saying critiquing the UK government is unpatriotic?

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 10:32

To use Jaws5's divorce analogy:

"I want a divorce"

"No"

"Well, I've decided. I don't want to go on the way things are".

"Tough"

"I've decided, I'm leaving"

"Well I'm going to make it as odious as I can for you then"

"Can't we use mediation & find some compromises for an amicable break up"

"No. If I concede anything it will just make me look weak. My reputation is worth far more than your wish for an amicable split"

See - it's a fucking ridiculous analogy, and can be viewed many different ways depending on your viewpoint.

MangoMoon · 21/11/2016 10:33

And Jaws5 seems to be the only one that continually bangs on about the empire, too.

Stop living in the past Jaws5 - there's a whole future out there.