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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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merrymouse · 20/11/2016 12:38

But what are the left doing about it? Debating who does and doesn't have a right to access women's changing rooms

I really don't see much evidence of this.

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 12:39

But what are the left doing about it?

Or even the centre and moderate right people? The question is, what exactly do we do? I have written to my MP. I have been on demonstrations. In my personal life I try to be good and positive and treat all with courtesy and respect, but I feel I am no match for a rabble rouser like Farage. And I am fed up with being called part of a metropolitan elite, when I am not metropolitan and a long long way from being part of any elite.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 12:41

8 years could be optimistic IMHO.

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RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 12:43

Just refuse to change Peregina. Just keep on keeping on, and keep on challenging. Time to be stubborn, entrench and dig in those heels for a long battle.

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RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 12:47

The Associated Press ‏@AP
BREAKING: German news agency dpa says Chancellor Angela Merkel will seek a fourth term in 2017 election.

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merrymouse · 20/11/2016 12:48

I think it's a standard right wing trope to complain that the left are only concerned about black lesbians with one leg living in Islington.

merrymouse · 20/11/2016 12:52

And it's probably a standard centrist reaction to think 'hmm is that true?'. In the end I think empathy and intelligence wins - and if you can't believe that what can you believe in?

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 13:09

I am feeling more and more angry about the way Parliament is caving in to Farage's agenda. A wonderful patriot, hey, who went off to schmooze Trump? While last week, war veterans were parading with dignity at the Cenotaph. I begin to feel that their sacrifices in fighting fascism, not forgetting those who stayed at home doing war work, were all in vain.

SapphireStrange · 20/11/2016 13:11

BREAKING: German news agency dpa says Chancellor Angela Merkel will seek a fourth term in 2017 election.

Thank fuck. And I hope to God she wins.

I think it's a standard right wing trope to complain that the left are only concerned about black lesbians with one leg living in Islington.

I agree. And I'm SO sick of it. I'm SO sick of the 'metropolitan elite' shite.

I'm feeling quite despairing today. I read a headline that the rest of the EU will force the UK into a hard Brexit. I guess at least then some people will realise what they really voted for. But it would seem to be a Pyrrhic victory.

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 13:16

I guess at least then some people will realise what they really voted for.

But the Farages, Goves, Johnsons, Duncan-Smiths, Redwoods and the whole sorry shower of them will suffer least, all being wealthy. It's ordinary bods like, you and me and those nice people two doors down, who all voted for what we thought were the country's best interests and who will be completely shafted.

SapphireStrange · 20/11/2016 13:47

I know, Peregrina. Which makes the 'remainers are just a left-wing intellectual elite' rhetoric even more a) hollow and b) infuriating.

morningrunner · 20/11/2016 13:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri · 20/11/2016 14:08

Re French presidential election I cannot understand why the party otherwise most likely to win insists on fielding a hugely unpopular candidate who lost the last time and assumes that they will win against the populist candidate because the possibility of the populist winning has not occurred to them . Remind you of anything ....

This isn't what is happening at all, though. We are only at the primary stage, we don't know yet who will run (it's not certain that Hollande will seek reelection).

The French press are far more independent than the UK press. They are perfectly well aware that the far right (and they DO call the FN the "extreme droite" because compared to your british press, the media here is less timid and less in hock to neo-fascist tycoons) has the potential to spring a surprise, even though the odds are stacked against them because of the way the system works.

The problem is that it's not entirely clear who is the best candidate against a nationalist demagogue. I have posted in the past that I fear that a Le Pen- Sarkozy second round could result in liberals staying at home. But equally a liberal candidate versus Le Pen could drive voters who favour Sarkozy int the arms of the national front.

Mistigri · 20/11/2016 14:10

My kids say we should all learn German and move east while we can ...

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 14:19

Misti, your kids have a point. Look at this for comparative levels of authoritarian populism across Europe:

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/trump-brexit-front-national-afd-branches-same-tree/

Scroll down quickly past the awful picture!

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 14:27

Mistigri you wouldn't be the only ones talking about it this weekend. DH is luke warm though. I'm more keen. He thinks we wouldn't have a problem going if we wanted. I'm less sure.

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jaws5 · 20/11/2016 14:32

Hester fascinating, and interestingly Germany and Spain are the European countries with the strongest
and most recent memory of real authoritarian populist regimes, and are rightly suspicious and aware of populism. Also, the other conclusion I reached after a brief read through the charts is that Labour are missing a trick here, and an alliance of liberal Labour and LibDems with moderate Tories could be the way ahead. I really hope they do.

merrymouse · 20/11/2016 14:45

Labour are missing a trick here, and an alliance of liberal Labour and LibDems with moderate Tories could be the way ahead

I think they are quite aware of the availability of that trick, but the whole leadership election was about electability vs. sticking it to the 'Blairites' and electability didn't win. Corbyn and McDonnell have no intention of ceding any power to centrists. It was certainly a deliberate decision to run a labour candidate in Richmond Park.

I don't think that situation will go on forever, but I don't see any sign of it changing soon.

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 14:48

jaws5 very good point about Spain and Germany. And yes, on the chart about 'Authoritarian populism in Britain - the four tribes of British politics', it suggests that there would be majority of people who could be loosely arranged into a centrist party. But the Labour leadership seems unkeen on forging links, and what's more they seem frozen into inaction.

merrymouse · 20/11/2016 15:12

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/20/john-mcdonnell-hilary-benn-deselection-leeds-central-labour-party

Just incase you thought the Labour Party might be on the verge of pulling together in these troubling times...

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 15:17

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-violate-constitution-george-bush-ethics-lawyer-diplomats-trump-washington-dc-hotel-a7428406.html
Donald Trump risks breaching US constitution on day one, George Bush's former ethics lawyer warns
The president-elect reportedly entertained a group of 100 foreign diplomats with food, a tour and a sales pitch - it could violate the ‘Emoluments Clause’

Richard Painter, a University of Minnesota law professor who was chief ethics counsel to George W Bush, told Think Progress that the president-elect could be in breach of the “Emoluments Clause” which prohibits presidents from buying influence with federal officials or receiving special treatment.

The clause states: “no person holding any office of profit or trust under” the United States “shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.”

IMPEACH HIM!

(In the style of 'Jail Her').

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CeciledeVolanges · 20/11/2016 15:26

Misti, it is funny but as I read that it occurred to me that "far right" is fairly neutral by most standards, it had just come to have moral connotations. "Fascist" and "nazi" less so.

jaws5 · 20/11/2016 15:32

merry you're right about Labour, unfortunately. Is Keir Starmer positioning himself though? If so, at least he is clearly far superior to Corbyn intellectually, he's a good orator and seems more in tune with the times.
Hester I'm from one of those two countries and I'm a great advocate for the teaching of "historical memory", even in countries with no recent history of fascism. It's so easy to take human rights and liberal values for granted, and the more they are, the more vulnerable a country is to populis demagogues.

HesterThrale · 20/11/2016 16:01

jaws5 I agree. On recent visits to Berlin, I've been struck by the openness and honesty the Germans have about their 20th Century history. Nothing hidden. Maybe that's what makes them less keen on populism.
You're right about Human Rights - even respect for Articles 1 and 2 is fragile these days.

www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

SwedishEdith · 20/11/2016 16:11

Just read about the 2002 French election and how the electorate mobilised to block J-M Le Pen gaining power. I'd love to assume same would happen in similar circumstances - will be interesting - frightening, tbh. Is she more popular than her dad and why are they estranged?