Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

[RedToothBrush]

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/christopher-hitchens-on-the-mildly-fascist-founder-of-the-boy-scouts/272683/
The late great Chris Hitchens on iffy roots of Baden Powell:
'Baden-Powell called Mein Kampf "a wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation."

Ok can we lay off the Scouts here.

DH is a Scout leader.
He just said, virtually all the Scout leaders he knows are rampant liberals.

I think it would be over his dead body. Quite literally, before that happened.

Bored, am trying to set something up. Its a nice idea.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
If this ends up anything like actual result, chalk it up as another Poll fail - all said Fillon would come third
... though it strikes me as rather difficult to properly sample a primary that is open, has massive turnout, and hasnt happened before

The point I was making about the youth organisations was not the opinions held by the founders, which were unfortunately commonly held at the time, but the way the take over happened. For girls it was called the Bund Deutscher Mädel

Chris Hitchens, I think we need more like him....

I'm a Cubs leader. I can assure you that they are not being indoctrinated into fascism by me although one or two of the much older leaders have some odd views, but they generally keep the, to themselves. I agree that most leaders I know have socially liberal views.

Baden-Powell though, whole other matter. But to be fair, he no longer has much direct input into the movement

Fillon has a British wife, apparently.

Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying that the Scouts, Cubs etc. are indoctrinating anyone into fascism - I was just remarking that the nazis went and took over youth organisations. Some shut down rather than be complicit. The comment was meant to show how the Nazis started with a slow drip, drip process.

His brother is married to is wife's sister. They're Welsh and Fillon's mum was Basque.

Red DH would be fairly calm if Fillon gets the nomination unlike if it goes to Sarkosy. Although there's still round two of the primary to get through... He came out of the last two debates very strongly, which is I think why he's suddenly doing so well. He was the prime minister under Sarkosy, but his politics are much more moderate, possibly more so than Juppé, and he comes across as more down to earth and trustworthy. He was a decent PM.

If that poll holds up the second round (of the primary) will be Fillon vs Juppé and most people will breathe easier before mobilising to keep MLP out without having to vote for someone utterly distasteful. At least, that's the theory

No I know you're not Peregrina. I was being lighthearted. It's just that while I can see how that easily happened in the 30s, I think the leaders now would never be part of that. The problem would be if we were told we had to do something, refused, were forced to leave or quit in protest, and then replaced by people who would. Which is actually, now I think about it, not impossible sadly.

But current leaders are, IME, very unlikely to indoctrinate anyone. except in vile, liberal elitist claptrap

I used to teach a few sixth form girls who we joked seemed to think they were BDM, not quite as funny now. They even had the hair...

My last post should have ended with

But current leaders are, IME, very unlikely to indoctrinate anyone.

And give sterling dedicated service, knowing some who are Scout and Guide leaders.

Sarkosy has just conceded live on TV. He has announced he will vote for Fillon, and that while his supporters are free to vote for whoever they want, he doesn't want them to vote for the extreme right.

So after playing to the hard right for the last few weeks he has swung back.

Also I've just noticed that I'm being systematically corrected to Sarkosy. Clearly my keyboard is not a Sarkozy fan either...

I'm feeling quite despairing today. I read a headline that the rest of the EU will force the UK into a hard Brexit. I guess at least then some people will realise what they really voted for.

(From earlier in the thread)

I initially wanted a soft to medium Brexit rather than hard.

However, following the news that the EU feel that we need to be forced into hard Brexit to dissuade other EU countries from getting ideas re leaving, my mind has changed somewhat.
Rather than thinking 'oh my gosh, that's not good', I am being pushed further toward 'fuck them, hard Brexit it is then'.

It also serves to further confirm my beliefs that we could never have 'changed things from within', so actually:
Yes - I am realising what I really voted for.
I voted for freedom.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2785647-Things-in-Common?watched=1&msgid=6503008765030087

BoredofBrexit I have set up a thread about Things in Common. I hope this is what you had in mind and that my own post is in the same vein as yours.

The doc I posted was of historical import Red and no reflection on all the lovely people, your DH included who volunteer for scouts work now.

I voted for freedom too. Its just I see it in a different way.

amaravatti, DH pointed out that Baden Powell himself was very much a socialist, but he was a socialist of the Boer War era (he fought in the Boer War). He was born in 1857 so by the time the Scouts were set up in 1907 he was fifty himself. By the time Mein Kampf was published in 1925 he was in 68. He was of an earlier era, at the height of the British Empire, despite his socialist values, so perhaps his sympathy to Mein Kampf makes more sense in this context. By the time he made those comments in 1937 he was 80.

I don't think that's an excuse. Just a context.

My great grandfather became a Scout in 1915. As a Scout he served the country, as a look out (for zeppelins) and as runner. He earned a 100 days service badge. When he turned 18 in 1918 he immediately joined the army. The Scouts were regarded as support to the military and country.

He then became a Scout leader in the 1930s. He was a faithful member of the community doing this, until late 1939, when he left due to problems with his marriage and duties in the Home Guard.

Despite the military connection in WWI I really do not think Scouting really is or ever has been much of a fertile breeding ground for fascism because of that socialist grounding and being a movement that promoted being an inclusive part of the community.

Michael D. Higgins is indeed an Irish National Treasure.
cdn.thejournal.ie/embeds/twitter/3ed57edf9d7dff85844fd51fcd0c9de0.png Here he is appreciating Bob Dylan at Slane in 1984.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/58/79/4458790cbc8978dee5c3ace440f371aa.jpg Waiting for the ATM.

Back to grim reality - quite a few 'for profit colleges' or trade schools that rake in federal funds by way of federal grants, leave students with debts thanks to educational loans, and then do not deliver qualifications as promised are under investigation all over the US. Trump University will get plenty of mentions as this investigation is ongoing.
billmoyers.com/story/the-for-profit-college-scam-that-these-students-are-still-paying-for/

Also, wrt the 'end of liberalism' articles from the NY Times, though the issue is under the radar to some extent, I suspect that the particular virtue signalling that has caused people much soul searching is support for the trans agenda, which is not even popular with some sections of the LGB general group. There are many, many people who would be very supportive of gay marriage and government keeping its nose out of sexuality and people's sex lives and who cannot see why the government has an interest in keeping people who love each other from being on each other's health insurance and claiming married status on tax returns, adopting children, etc, but if forced to choose between supporting a teenage male identifying (this is all that is required) as a female and being allowed to use the girls' locker room in a public high school, and the right of their daughters not to have to disrobe and shower in front of that male, they would draw a very firm line and would fail to see why their daughters should have to change under a towel - and how do you shower under a towel? What about parents who pay thousands of dollars and invest every weekend and many weeknights every year since their daughters were little so that they could play soccer well enough to get onto a high school team, only to find that a teenage boy, endowed with the muscles and speed and strength that testosterone bestows, gets a place on the team and the girls lose out? Sports scholarships are very important in the US.

Parents, some sections of the gay and lesbian community, as well as feminists and members of churches make strange bedfellows, but bedfellows they are in the face of the transborg.

I don't wish to derail this thread into trans issues, but this was one that was underground but very much present, and I don't see much mention of it apart from veiled references such as the identity politics articles.

MangoMoon I hate to say it, but the Remain camp have predicted all along that the EU weren't going to let us pick and choose a deal to suit ourselves. If the UK gets a better deal outside the EU than it did inside, than what's to stop ever other country wanting its own bespoke deal?

It was only clowns like Johnson that thought that the EU would have to give us exactly what we want or lose sales of Prosecco.

This is just an addendum and then I promise no more trans comments -
"And from what I have heard of men's locker rooms, it certainly does not justify someone who presents a a woman having to go and get changed there"

This is what feminists feel really angry about. High school girls are expected to sort out problems that young men cause other young men. The answer is not to foist people with penises onto girls and women but to force boys and men to accept a model of maleness that is more inclusive. Not all feminists were thrilled about the actions of the US Department of Justice in reinterpreting the word 'sex' in Title IX to mean 'gender'.

I count myself really lucky to live in the bluest of blue suburbs of a blue city in a blue state. I don't think there is a bluer place. It is Bernie Sanders territory and then some, and quite affluent. All the parents of girls that I know - and I have four DDs so I know a lot of parents of girls - were really troubled by the Obama administration's appearance of throwing girls and women under the bus.

Simple solution - totally unisex but non communal facilities, no one has to declare to anyone, privacy is maintained. Or is that too naive?