The Brexit Arms (temporary till the licensee get here)

[BoredofBrexit]

Noise enforcement squad!
Where's the landlady? Surfer?
We've been advised of a a lock in and it's reported that the jukebox has been stuck playing Pulp - Common People - all night.

Dunce is a word used to shame those who were struggling with learning. To use it as an insult is disgusting. We all know that the vast majority of children labeled as dunces had learning difficulties.

Switches jukebox to We Will Rock You by Queen and you may find the attached amusing:

You do genuinely seem to want a place that you can spout all the nonsense you like and no one will challenge it but, really, what is the point in that?

Aren't all pubs full of people talking shite?

Bear, I'm all for people challenging stuff & I'll often try to explain my thinking process or reasoning etc - but the crux of it is that I'll only do that if I can be arsed.

I stop being arsed when faced with constant demands for answers on the same, repetitive points that I and many, many others answered & countered ad infinatum back in June.

These threads I have happily popped onto purely because the general tone is genuine questions/discussions and people trying to understand 'the other side' as it were.
Posters who demand! And expect! And berate! are simply not people I want to waste my time with.

If you want Brexit Answers! Then there are myriad threads.
If you want to engage in Brexit chit chat & discussion of any Brexit-related current issues or things that are popping up as part of the ongoing process, and are genuinely interested in 'how the other half' view/see/consider those things, then I'll happily engage too.

(I've used 'you' all the way through my post but I obvs mean 'general you', not you personally Bear!)

No birdy!
It was someone else

Aye time, it was.
A lot of intolerance around at the moment.
Especially around opening a pub thread in the EU referendum section that's lighthearted.

Doh!

The Dunce's cap was given to children deemed the bottom of the class - in those wonderful politically incorrect times you're all so fond of - being a dunce wasn't a disability!

Again with the ridiculously offensive sweeping stereotyping.
It's tedious.

Leave voter does not equal someone who hankers for 'the past' or someone who wants to marginalise people.

mango, I see your point but surely you can understand how the frustration develops when your comrades make comments on here then do everything they can to avoid discussing then further when asked to.

I'm not talking about going over old ground, but when people bring up points here but then refuse to explain them or answer any questions.

It begs the question - why bother posting on a discussion thread.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if some people actually forget what was on the fucking voting slip.

It asked one question.

It did not, at any point:
ask my views on immigration, race, religion, human rights or anything else.
It didn't ask me to specify my education level, my job status, my voting record, my socioeconomic status, my age, my race etc

I voted to Leave the EU, that's it!
Any other assumption made by anyone purely on the box my X went into is just unfounded stereotyping.

I think stereotyping of leave voters (and trump voters) is annoying.

However, when your own land-lady is doing it: 'trump won because he's anti muslim' (ie racists won) or brexit was about 'the forgotten white working class' is that not equally annoying?

my illuminati quest has gone down like a lead ballon.

Yes, there was one question but the expectation was that you considered the pros and cons a little further than that binary choice.

I actually think that that is the problem though - too many people did take it that literally.

It still doesn't address the problem with comments like that from howabout who posted about Glasgow as if it were a reason to leave the EU but then pulled down the shutters when she couldn't back up that assertion.

There's a problem here.

People don't want the 'stupid' label. So if you do talk and make a point that is regarded as 'intellectual' then that's 'elitist'.

We need to talk each others languages more, but its not that straightforward either. If you simplify it all the time, it removes meaning and I think is frankly patronising too. If you are intellectual all the time it doesn't get the message across. Both are needed. Finding the middle ground is bloody difficult and few can do it.

I honest in saying I struggle with it at times. I can only be 'me'.

It is a fair point that on this thread there is more challenging of people rather than a challenging of ideas though. I am trying not to get into that as its not constructive. Both sides are guilty of this.

If I do a long post, then yeah it might not be read. But it might get a single idea across too. Then other people can pass it on, in a way that makes sense to others and in a way that others will understand and find more accessible. I can't necessarily do that. Everyone has different strengths, and its not really mine.

The idea that is it elitist to be intellectual is self harming though. It suggests that one is set against the other. Its not true. There is nothing wrong with being intellectual. There is nothing wrong with not being intellectual too by that token. Its more just a failing of communication and a break down in relations.

We need to work on it and its all part of a bigger picture.

I do think the pub serves a good purpose for that reason. It is some progress from some of the threads we've had in my opinion.

There might be an elephant in the room at times. I can live with the elephant for the moments when people do have a good exchange of feelings and ideas.

(Yep another wall of text. Its my trademark)

They're not my comrades any more than the 16+ million people who voted Remain are your comrades/allies or otherwise.

The only thing you have in common with every single other person that voted Remain is that one thing - the way you voted.
That's it.

I probably share just as many values/ideas/aspirations etc with you as I do with other people on this thread from both 'sides' - but because I happened to vote a different way we are by default adversaries? No shared values at all?

It's the polarisation that seems to be the want & will of Remain voters that I can't understand.

(I do realise the irony in my last sentence btw - making a sweeping generalisation about Remain when I am arguing against that very thing being done to Leave! )

I was using 'comrades' as a term for those Leavers in this thread.

I'm not trying to group all Leavers together but many are doing that themselves by refusing to back up their comments.

It's not an unreasonable request, if you want to discuss Brexit, how ever light heartedly, that requires 2 way dialogue, not just saying things and not explaining further when other posters want to engage in conversation.

It still doesn't address the problem with comments like that from howabout who posted about Glasgow as if it were a reason to leave the EU but then pulled down the shutters when she couldn't back up that assertion.

See, I interpreted that post differently to you - there perhaps lies the problem?

Where you read it in a 'why does this mean the EU is bad; why will leaving the EU fix that' context, I read it as a stand alone point not in an EU = bad/good context.

I read it as
'Glasgow is seen as a pretty liberal city nowadays, they voted overwhelmingly to remain. However, even within this strongly Remain & [considered to be] liberal area, there are pockets where people feel disenfranchised, forgotten and where they feel there is little or no hope. In these areas there is the feeling that they are being left behind by the 'elite' and the 'ruling classes'. Those areas are now ripe for someone to come and galvanise them no matter how 'empty' their promises may be'.

The point that I took from it was that 'the Brexit/Trump effect and why it happens' is therefore tangibly observable on a small scale in that particular example.

Good post RTB. I sometimes ponder on the posters I'd like to have a drink with in an actual pub, and those posters - let's say 'virtual' friend hold a whole range of views, like my 'actual' friends do. But someone said we shouldn't chit chat like this on a discussion thread - there are many shades of discussion, but maybe Surf needs to move the pub to chat.

New picture behind the bar.

mango, if it's nothing to do with the EU and leaving it then why is it relevant though?

I do think there were huge numbers who voted Leave because they think that problems like that in Glasgow will be resolved by leaving the EU but they won't.

Got to love you, Surf!
Indefatigable and optimistic as ever.
I got really fed up earlier - my illuminati comment was a throwaway one on a lighthearted thread but I should have known better to respond to a GF.
Anyway....my round. Spend some gold

I like reading your posts Red (Surfer is another fan of yours!).

Your posts are usually measured and you have a knack of putting yourself in the other side's shoes.

Wrt We need to talk each others languages more, YYY.
I do think that a big problem is that we're all just words on a screen though - in person, actually talking, would have vastly different outcomes.

I should have referred them to Claig on the illuminati point - she'd have had 'em!

Ok, so the illuminati "in the real sense" being pissed off by Trump was you being funny! Ok.

It's the polarisation that seems to be the want & will of Remain voters that I can't understand. some remain voters, and some leave voters, no?

Bear, it's relevant because that's why people vote for change.

It's relevant because it's people in situations like that who tipped the vote toward Leave & Trump.

It's relevant because people in situations like this feel that the people who are supposed to be representing them are too busy fiddling with their liberal social conscience in a leafy suburb or swanky city centre apartment to actually bother to do anything to change their shitty lot.
That leaves them vulnerable to the far right who they believe will give them a voice** (even though the truth is that it's just the illusion of one).

It's relevant because that small example of Glasgow is replicated throughout the western world at the moment.

If you truly care about stopping the far right's rise across Europe and the west, if you truly care about liberal values & helping and supporting those who are vulnerable or in need, then you need to understand the relevance of that example and view it in the wider context.

One last peek, and I am cringing on your behalf OP and fellow berexit arms enthusiast. You do sound like bunch of boring old men who are past their 'best by date' full of self-importance talk and not-so-funny-jokes

"I should have referred them to Claig on the illuminati point - she'd have had 'em!" That's like saying my big brother/sister is going to show you. Are you not able to formulate an informed argument yourself OP? I suggest reading and think to address this lack.