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Brexit

The Brexit Arms (temporary till the licensee get here)

990 replies

BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 07:27

Noise enforcement squad!
Where's the landlady? Surfer?
We've been advised of a a lock in and it's reported that the jukebox has been stuck playing Pulp - Common People - all night.

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Thread gallery
21
Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 17:43

mango the whole point is, and what others have argued more eloquently than me is that neither Brexit nor Trump have offered or will deliver the 'change' those who voted for them want, it's just not on the table.

Whatthefuckdidido · 10/11/2016 17:45

Mango, your point about people sitting twiddling their thumbs in leafy suburbs is interesting.

The areas that suffer economic depression are almost all Labour areas, labour have actively opposed benefit cuts, austerity policies and have been championing increased spending on infrastructure and education etc.

Lives for many have got worse due to tort policies, all of which were supported by the leaders of leave. So why are they voting for change led by those who have inflicted much of the amateur?

Whatthefuckdidido · 10/11/2016 17:45

Damage?

MangoMoon · 10/11/2016 17:45

Your tired rhetoric has long passed its use- by date as well Thea.

I would hold off on your self-congratulatory self-pleasuring if I were you.

HTH!

Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 17:53

mango I'm guessing thea is me. I'm disappointed you've sunk to the level of insults rather than responding to comments too.

Surely you can do better than that if you do genuinely believe people are going to get the 'change' they think they voted for.

I also think you've given howabout more credit than she deserved wrt the point about Glasgow being part of the bigger picture- I've reread that post and it is about EU immigration and even says at the end it's 'just one specific example'

MangoMoon · 10/11/2016 17:54

Whatthe, my point is that it's their perception - completely separate and different to what might actually be the facts.

Bear, they vote for Brexit/Trump because they have waited & waited for the promised change to be delivered by consecutive governments (8 yrs of democrats, decades of EU & decades of dutifully, hopefully and loyally voting in their Labour MPs), and they see no change to their lived reality.

The politicians take great pains to 'deliver the message' that immigration is a net benefit, the EU is delivering funding for X/Y/Z, etc etc but the people (in Glasgow for example) aren't actually experiencing what they're told they should be.

MangoMoon · 10/11/2016 17:55

Bear, no!

Thea was short for *Theaspizzashop.
*
I just got thoroughly fed up with her goady posts.

InformalRoman · 10/11/2016 17:56

From what I know about Govanhill, a lot of the problems arise from the immigrant mix in the area - Asian and Eastern European (particularly the Roma).

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 17:58

It's the polarisation that seems to be the want & will of Remain voters that I can't understand.

(I do realise the irony in my last sentence btw - making a sweeping generalisation about Remain when I am arguing against that very thing being done to Leave! )

Flip it all its head. If you were unhappy with the EU and felt it was imposed on you, then that's exactly what Brexit feels like.

If Leavers have a fear and dislike of globalisation, then Remainers have a fear of losing the ability to travel.

If leavers like the idea of control then remainers fear it.

Etc etc.

So with what is happening there is a polarisation. Its like pushing for the referendum in reverse.

Farage says he's representing 'ordinary working people'. Then calls everyone else an elite. There are plenty of 'ordinary working people' who are not elites but yeah might be on a higher income.

Polarisation is a result of a hard push in a certain direction being meet with equal resistance that's all.

Unless there is a happy medium that's reached then its not going to please anyone.

That does actually have to start with Theresa May, and the problem is she's one of the ones leading the pushing in a certain direction, rather than trying to reassure and get people on board with her and work with her. She's simply not being sensitive to concerns, and not recognising different values as being equally valid - in part I think cos she is desperate to prove how committed to leaving she is.

I do think there is a way forward that would make everyone happy, we are just not seeing it.

May is just creating a situation where at some point you can expect a lurch back completely the other way, purely because of the split in age. I don't think that's in the national interest either.

(Compromise and consensus are the really dirty words of politics and what we don't do in the UK. My other fear is that authoritarian thinking is perhaps less willing to do this, whereas liberal thinking is more willing to do this by its very nature - a fear that needs reassurance in its own right)

Whatthefuckdidido · 10/11/2016 17:59

So are you saying mango that you think he Obama administration failed these people like Niger farrage had implied today?

MangoMoon · 10/11/2016 18:03

No, what I'm saying is that it's the perception that he's failed them that has mattered.

I'll say again what I said earlier, just for the record:

I cannot stand Trump, I liked Obama.

I just can understand how it happened is all.

Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 18:06

They vote for Brexit/Trump because they have waited & waited for the promised change to be delivered by consecutive governments and they see no change to their lived reality.

mango I don't know enough about the US but wrt to Brexit, what is the logic behind being unhappy that successive governments haven't delivered change yet choosing to give the very same people full 'control'?

Not least on a practical level, Brexit is going to take so long to actually sort out they'll be even less time to 'listen' not more.

surferjet · 10/11/2016 18:19

Exactly Mango - I'm a Tory but I totally understood why we lost the '97 election - but remainers are still in shock and just can't understand why people feel the way they do? which is crazy as things had been going very wrong for years.

Whatthefuckdidido · 10/11/2016 18:25

How are people dealing with the fact that the will of the people was actually hillary, but the constitutional law means that they get trump. interesting!

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 18:30

I think we have to step away from the 'will of the people' rhetoric as it will resurrect the a50 subject.

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Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 18:50

I think we have to step away from the 'will of the people' rhetoric as it will resurrect the a50 subject.

Heaven forbid a thread in the EU referendum section might mention a50 eh? Hmm

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 18:52

Bear. I don't know what we are meant to say here. Every Voter considered the facts - and consideration can be subjective as well as objective, but there is no right and wrong. They came to their own conclusion - again, some in a less informed way perhaps than others but it would be wrong to suggest that there is a right way of thinking and a wrong one and that if you chose the wrong one you are at fault and of a lesser quality than another person. Some voted leave. The very nature of voting for something that is yet to come to pass and wasn't specified on the ballot was a risk. But it was a choice that was offered. The blame lies with the person who offered that choice, not the chooser. Why is 'I voted Leave because I believed it would lead to the UK rescinding it's membership of the EU' not an answer? I didn't vote Leave to spite Remainers, that's for sure. But my deliberation was not data driven, it was read, think, listen, feel, which is very hard to put into bullet point 'reasons for leaving'. Maybe some of the reasons Leavers voted as they did were actually not caused by being in the EU. But every person has a right to vote and the ballot did not come with a disclaimer that voting in one way made you morally deficient held to account by all who voted the other way.

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Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 18:58

I don't know what we are meant to say here

My expectation is that if people come into a very specific section on MN and make comments on a thread about Brexit then they will have the decency to discuss the points they make rather than just making arbitrary comments then absolutely refusing to discuss them any further for the very simple reason that they can't.

The posters that disappear rather than discuss are one thing but the worst offenders make excuses and attempt to deflect the comments rather than just answering.

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 19:21

Is that aimed at me?

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Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 19:25

It was aimed at what you'd said bored as I quoted you but the principle is much wider than just you.

Examples are endless but from today alone we have the complete refusal to discuss

  • what the definition of 'elite' is
  • how leaving the EU will address the problem of illegal immigrants in Glasgow.
RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 19:36

Whatthefuckdidido Thu 10-Nov-16 17:45:12
Mango, your point about people sitting twiddling their thumbs in leafy suburbs is interesting.

The areas that suffer economic depression are almost all Labour areas, labour have actively opposed benefit cuts, austerity policies and have been championing increased spending on infrastructure and education etc.

I find this desperately frustrating.

Our town is one of the most unequal in the country. It is split between north and south. The North is Labour and has a Labour MP. The South is Liberal Democrat and has a Tory MP.

The Tory MP has done a lot trying to get infrastructure into the town. Most of what he has done has been in the North. This is actually not his constituency, but he sees it as benefiting the whole town. I have to say I think this is good and admirable and recognises that benefiting the poorer areas has benefit to everyone in the town. (I do not agree with him on a lot of other things I have to say. He does not live in the town. He does not even live in the leafy suburbs).

Labour dominate the town council. They hold a majority and as such can do what they like. They have been making decisions outside town meetings then presenting them as decision at the local council although the decision has been already made.

Recently there has been a decision to close local library services in the town. They have decided to cut them only in Liberal Democrat areas. These are wealthier areas.

It protects more urban Labour voting areas.

There is a problem here though.

Its based on an assumption that only rich people live in the suburbs and they need public services less. The reality is that there is also a lot of people, who don't fall into that category. There are a lot of council house, people with mobility issues and the elderly that still live in the leafy suburbs. They are less able to use centralised services, as transport has been cut, to the richer areas due to falling demand (whilst the poorer areas have retained their transport and been protected). This means they end up more vulnerable and isolated. They are also no more economically better off than those in the urban areas. They don't have disposal income. They might have property which is worth more, but should they have to sell their houses, to access basic services which are available elsewhere?

In the 'leafy suburbs' the libraries are much more used, than in the poorer areas. But they are not used by the rich people. The rich people just buy everything from bloody amazon. For local people who do use the libraries this is just about the only thing that they have got.

The local newspaper has been full of comments about how the leafy suburbs deserve it.

In trying to defend these services for the vulnerable in the area, the lib dems have faced a backlash.

Its frustrating. I have sympathy for the council in having to make cuts and I do understand that the poor urban areas should get more as such, but it has been an ongoing process where the leafy suburbs now are places where poorer people are less able to live, further magnifying the problem and almost 'ghettoising' and people are being demonised for living in certain places. Decisions are not being made on the basis of usage or need either, for the town as a whole. Its purely been along political lines. It is not recognising that there are vulnerable people across the town.

Its now getting to the point where there are virtually no services paid for out of council tax in the leafy suburbs. Everything has gone. The urban areas, have retained things at their expense (and this goes beyond simply centralising things). This includes putting charges on parking in the leafy suburbs only and pushing the cost of emptying bins onto parish councils.

There is a certain growing sense of unfairness and resentment going on as a result. The leafy suburbs are starting to feel like they are getting taxed twice for less services at the end of it, and don't like the principle of this rather than disliking taxation. They feel they are getting no say or influence in the decision making process. They feel that they are being demonising for having the nerve to oppose this and try and retain something.

Most can afford it, and I get the impression that most don't mind paying more, providing they get something to show for it in the end and services are there for those who do use and need them.

The Lib Dems that represent the area have therefore spent time defending these issues (which they should do as they are representing the interests of those who elect them) against the Labour council rather than having a town wide policy on poverty and the vulnerable as a uniting issue. It rather pits one area against another in competition for what little there is.

I don't know what the answer is. It strike me that there is an underlying problem with taxation and distribution of how it is spent. Which is often, as I say, along political lines rather than based on need and usage.

My point is that, 'the leafy suburbs' are not simply full of selfish people who are only interested in themselves. Its much more complicated than that, and doesn't reflect that poor people live there too, and being out in the suburbs brings its own additional issues relating to transport. There just seems to be a lack of understanding and acknowledging problems beyond your own particular bubble.

Simply blaming the leafy suburbs as somehow being selfish and not understanding doesn't cut it. I do think there is more awareness than people realise, but I also think the politics of cuts have helped to drive a huge wedge in that relationship too. Its much more complex than that. Society is becoming much more tribal as a result of it all.

All three parties do offer something to the town in their own way. Its just that they don't seem to be working together and don't work for everyone because its becoming increasingly down to localised thinking and certain wider themes and generalisations.

As I say, I don't know what the solution is to this, but problems with communication - which is universal and goes both ways - and tribalism that this creates seem to be a huge part of the overall problem. People have stopped listened to each other.

(Sorry, that was a long post)

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 19:49

Bear. More specifically I meant the last words in your last para because I answered in good spirit and you continue to be high handed. If your expectations are not being met here perhaps you should look elsewhere for fulfillment - if I went to a pub and it wasn't to my liking I would go elsewhere rather than demand the landlord changed it to suit me.

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Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 19:56

FFS bored, it's not a fucking pub- it's a thread on a discussion forum.

Grow up.

I was talking about people who post points about Brexit and don't then discuss them further, not people who are actually so deluded they think they are actually in a pub.

Bearbehind · 10/11/2016 19:58

red your posts really are too long Grin

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 20:01

meh!

Grin