Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 20:23

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
A crisis foreseen: peers' amendments to first EU Ref Bill. Tory whips said it was a filibuster attempt.

So it turns out that the problems we are seeing now where pointed out by the Lords and they did try and make an amendment to the EU referendum bill.

Check this beauty out.

States that the decision had to go before parliament to authorise triggering a50 AND the government had to put before parliament its intension for the new relationship with the EU in the event of leaving AND references to England, NI, Scotland and Wales.

UnFUCKINGbelievable.

And its the Lords that complained about... Damn those unelected officials doing a better job than the elected ones.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 20:24

EU Referendum suggested amendments

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 20:34

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/729121/brexiteer-former-minister-defends-article-50-judges
The Express
David Mellor. (Leaver)
Saying court judgement of a50 correct. Judges right to do so.
Saying not about Brexit but democracy.

I think I just fell of my chair in shock.

OP posts:
GloriaGaynor · 05/11/2016 20:40

Is David Mellor still alive? He's our old MP.

hotmail124 · 05/11/2016 21:23

Lewis Crofts ‏@lewis_crofts Nov 4
EU's started sniffing round UK support for #Nissan. Seeking info on "assurances" www.mlex.com/GlobalAntitrust/DetailView.aspx?
and this one too.

But to go back to the failed peers' amendment, something smells fishy here.
Why would an amendment to ensure separation of powers was observed not be included in the original referendum bill?

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 21:29

Christian Wolmar would be an asset in Parliament, but not Richmond Park please. Find a good seat with a Labour/Tory split.

David Mellor is definitely alive - I saw him rushing for the tube a few weeks ago.

HummusForBreakfast · 05/11/2016 21:30

So actually all that stuff about going to Court was for nothing!?!

I mean the Lords thought things out (well done to them!) bout somehow no one has even realised that.

Sorry, I'm lost there. Totally and utterly lost.

lalalonglegs · 05/11/2016 21:45

The Lords thought things through when the referendum was proposed but their suggestions were not included in the ultimate legislation that sanctioned the referendum going ahead.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 21:48

No the Lords tried to get an amendment to stop the situation happening. But they were overruled.

So we have to go to court cos some knobend thought he knew better than the Lords and thought they were just trying to block the referendum in the first place rather than protect us against the inevitable clusterfuck not including it would produce.

OP posts:
HummusForBreakfast · 05/11/2016 21:51

Sorry misunderstood there.

By any chance, is it that the Lords have been getting an idea of how undemocratic the whole system is getting and so wanted some sort of protection they would have a say?
I'm also wondering how and why this wasn't approved in the end. It would be interesting to see why the MPs thought it wouldnt be necessary. Maybe because they were convinced it wouldn't happen anyway or was it for other reasons I wonder...

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 21:51

So why didn't the Lords' amendments make it through - they seem eminently sensible. Or was it just that DC was so arrogant that he thought it unecessary? Why/how has the information surfaced now?

So the 'Independent' standing is really the official Tory candidate, or as good as?

lalalonglegs · 05/11/2016 22:01

I don't think there is anything official about her - she seems a bit of a loose cannon. She took to Twitter when her exh was sacked by Cameron and laid into the then-PM; seems very pro-EU and (weirdly) has a photo of - I think - ZG as a schoolboy as her FB homepage Confused. I hope she is very well-connected in the constituency and wildly popular with the locals and therefore can split the right-wing vote but it seems unlikely.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 22:19

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/05/brexit-right-politics-speaking-for-the-people?CMP=share_btn_tw
Nick Cohen

It’s not enough to moan about the new right – resist it

And LOOK! Corbyn speaks. He has a position on Brexit

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-gives-theresa-ultimatum-9204393
Jeremy Corbyn gives Theresa May ultimatum: Agree to Labour's Brexit terms or I'll force election in spring

In an exclusive Sunday Mirror interview, the Labour leader said he will only let the PM trigger EU negotiations in a Commons vote if she agrees to Labour’s “Brexit bottom line”.

He said: “Sorry, but we live in a democracy and the Government has to be responsive to Parliament. It’s not my timetable so it’s up to her to respond.”

Mr Corbyn’s bottom lines are:
UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
No watering down of EU workplace rights.
Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
Pledges on Britain picking up the tab for any EU capital investment lost by Brexit

I just fell off my chair again.

OP posts:
autumnintheair · 05/11/2016 22:33

so what does Jezza say about FOM then - as this is the crux and cause of Brexit?

StripeyMonkey1 · 05/11/2016 22:36

Am I reading that right Red? Is Corbyn saying that access to the single market is one of his "red lines"? That would be great news.

Also I really I like this:

Mr Corbyn was furious with the way the High Court judges were branded “enemies of the people” over their Brexit ruling.

He said: “The language used was disgraceful, sinister and very, very dangerous.”

autumnintheair · 05/11/2016 22:39

Corbyn has lost all credibility for me over many issues. So many but one was seeing him glad handing Assad Shock

StripeyMonkey1 · 05/11/2016 22:46

Corbyn has at least (belatedly) stepped up and has publicly made the point that Liz Truss and Theresa May should both have made with regard to the disgusting Daily Mail headline.

Whatever you might think of him generally Autumn, he is right on this.

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 22:47

Gosh, what is happening? First an MP resigns, honourably IMO, then David Mellor criticises the Government and although he's nothing now, he was important once, and then {fanfare} Corbyn Speaks.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 22:47

About time Corbyn showed some.... well, something! A bit late in the evening when we've been waiting all day, but I welcome his clearer position and hope he maintains it.

InformalRoman · 05/11/2016 22:49

The HoL amendment required 40% of the electorate to give assent?

Anyone got a face palm emoji?

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 22:51

Read the article Autumn.

He says not a sausage about FoM from what I can see.
And yes Single Market (or access to) appears to be one of his read lines.

This is after Hilary Benn said yesterday there would be no blocking of anything.

Labour's position is thus (if you combine everything Starmer, Corbyn and Benn have said in the last two days:
We will not stop Brexit. We will however block it, without proper consultation and certain guarantees.
We will let out membership of the Single market lapse.
However, we must retain UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market somehow. There must be no watering down of EU workplace rights. There must be guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment. Investment by the EU must be covered by the UK government (for example I guess things like Science).

They do not insist on retaining FoM. They do not even mention FoM.

This is actually something of a move for Corbyn, because ideologically there was always the suggestion that he liked FoM and disliked the Single Market (the opposite to thinking of a lot of traditional Labour voters).

This also effectively allies Labour quite closely with soft Tory Brexiteers. (And indeed Labour Brexiteers)

But at the same time positions them with a common agenda with the Lib Dems and SNP for the purposes of achieving a soft Brexit.

Anyone saying he can not force a General Election if he wanted to, might actually be incorrect here.

OP posts:
jaws5 · 05/11/2016 22:51

And the Express on Mellor? Now, that's interesting. After yesterday the DM probably wins the prize for most despicable rag so the Express might see the light for a minute...

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 22:53

This might actually be Corbyn's suicide note as Leader of Labour of course...

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 05/11/2016 23:00

I dunno Red. It might just be a position that Labour MPs could get behind.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 23:02

Couldn't it be Corbyn coming back to planet Earth (to quote Woody Allen) and the beginning of a real opposition? Why do you think it could finish him and which Labour would replace him?