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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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ClashCityRocker · 05/11/2016 17:00

Yes I think that's a very good point mistigri

It's one of the reason I don't think there will be an early GE. It doesn't seem that either labour or tories have a coherent position on brexit. Because brexit doesn't follow party lines, they will need to nail their colours to the mast and risk alienating voters.

HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 17:06

I am very concerned about the direction the UK is going in: poisonous hate speech, racism, lack of respect for the judiciary, horrible tabloid excesses etc.

All maintained schools are advised by Govt. to teach these:

•	...distinguish right from wrong and to respect the civil and criminal law of England
•	... acquire a broad general knowledge of and respect for public institutions and services in England
•	further tolerance and harmony between different cultural traditions by enabling students to acquire an appreciation of and respect for their own and other cultures
•	encourage respect for other people
•	encourage respect for democracy and support for participation in the democratic processes, including respect for the basis on which the law is made and applied in England. 
•	an understanding of how citizens can influence decision-making through the democratic process
•	an understanding that there is a separation of power between the executive and the judiciary, and that while some public bodies such as the police and the army can be held to account through Parliament, others such as the courts maintain independence 
•	an understanding that the freedom to choose and hold other faiths and beliefs is protected in law
•	an acceptance that other people having different faiths or beliefs to oneself (or having none) should be accepted and tolerated, and should not be the cause of prejudicial or discriminatory behaviour
•	an understanding of the importance of identifying and combatting discrimination

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/380595/SMSC_Guidance_Maintained_Schools.pdf
November 2014.

Very laudable aims, but the Government is not following its own advice. They should be constantly condemning any racist action and speech, tabloid incitement to hate and dangerous disrespect to the judiciary.

How can schools bring up the next generation properly, when the political atmosphere is so poisonous, and the actual Govt. are setting such a bad example?

shirleyknotanotherbot · 05/11/2016 17:27

I'm here again. Thank you.

lalalonglegs · 05/11/2016 17:30

Liz Truss has spoken! Or rather she has muttered a few words and ran off - her statement (see below - and, yes, that is the full version) is a disgrace. It does hint at how terrified the May government is of upsetting Dacre that ministers will not challenge even his most egregious and blatantly biased headlines and stories.

“The independence of the judiciary is the foundation upon which our rule of law is built and our judiciary is rightly respected the world over for its independence and impartiality. In relation to the case heard in the high court, the government has made it clear it will appeal to the supreme court. Legal process must be followed.”

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 17:32

Had a quick look at York. I'm not totally convinced that either seat is winnable for the LDs from the EU ref / GE data alone.

York Central scores very low for Leave vote 38% and the 2015 vote works out as 47%. So big difference.

BUT its held by a Labour candidate. And in 2010 the LD still only came in third.

It could happen, the trouble is that the Lab/Lib split makes it an altogether more complex situation. Depends on local issues and demographics more perhaps. Its much more difficult to pick out the pattern with ones like this.

Its not a dissimilar situation in York Outer, which is a Conservative held seat.

The Leave vote was 44% and strangely because there is such a split vote between the LDs and labour the 2015 GE vote actually comes in lower at 40% Leave. So you'd think that the is less of a swing from the Conservatives potentially possible here than you might think. It is more about how the Lab / Lib votes divide up and whether the this means the seat can stay Conservative as a result. I do however note that the LDs did come close to taking it in 2010 (and the 2010 GE Leave vote score comes in at 44% which the actual result). It does make me wonder if this is the more natural fit for voters as a result.

I think looking at the two, York Outer looks more winnable from just going straight off the EU Ref / 2015 data. Depends on how much people go off Corbyn.

I totally agree Mistigri about May not liking the look of an early GE. These stats do makes it look much less attractive than the polls seem.

But, its whether she has the choice. The loss of Cameron was not that surprising. The loss of Goldsmith looked like vanity. But the loss of a third MP in the circumstances it is, starts to make it look like her leadership is not good and she's careless about her MPs.

Another one, and it starts to raise serious questions. Or a big rebellion.

Hester, how can schools bring up the next generation properly? By bringing back the cane of course...

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tiggytape · 05/11/2016 17:36

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RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 17:36

Is Nick Clegg following this thread? Call me paranoid but...

Nick Clegg ‏@nick_clegg 6h
Spare us the hypocrisy of Darth Dacre. First Daily Mail wants parliament to take control and now condemns it. Honestly.

Keir Starmer has also said this in addition to saying we should let single market access lapse:
Keir Starmer ‏@Keir_Starmer
PM should be far more ambitious in Brexit approach: fighting for full access to single market & in customs union: act in national interest.

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HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 17:36

Yes, Lalalonglegs, I'm with you - shocked and disgusted by Liz Truss. The son of a previous Lord Chief Justice, Harry Bingham, thinks she is 'halfway to Putinism':

www.writersworkshop.co.uk/blog/the-rule-of-law-an-open-letter-to-liz-truss/

SwedishEdith · 05/11/2016 17:50

Was just reading up about Liz Truss. From wiki,

"On 14 July 2016, Truss was appointed as Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor in Theresa May's first ministry. Truss is the first woman to hold either position. The decision to appoint her was criticised by the then Minister of State for Justice Edward Faulks, Baron Faulks who resigned from the government saying " I have nothing against Ms Truss personally, but is she going to have the clout to be able to stand up to the prime minister when necessary, on behalf of the judges? Is she going to be able to stand up, come the moment, to the prime minister, for the rule of law and for the judiciary . . . without fear of damaging her career? It is a big ask. " [73] Lord Falconer, the former Lord Chancellor expressed similar views and dealt with suggestions that the objections were merely misogynistic. Writing in The Guardian he welcomed the appointment of a woman but pointed out that like Chris Grayling and Michael Gove, she lacked the essential legal expertise that the constitution requires of position holders.[74]"

Didn't know she used to be a LibDem either and that she's described her parents as "to the left of Labour".

BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 05/11/2016 17:54

Baron Faulks clearly had the measure of her!

Truss' limp statement is pathetic and cowardly. She is not fit for office.

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 18:07

OTOH, a soft brexit manifesto will enrage the Tory right and will lose May the kipper vote.

And how this balances out is the $64,000 question, isn't it? At the moment, May seems to be going hell for leather for the UKIP vote, which suits her own anti-immigrant prejudices, and taking the 'one nation Tories' for granted.

However, in many parts of the north, which is the area which is probably most fertile for potential UKIP votes, Labour used to rack up huge majorities, so could sustain some loss in votes without losing the seat, and under the current system, a win by one vote is a win.

Two other unknowns (to me at least) are:

  1. how is the Momentum vote distributed? Do we know whether they are Remain or not?
  2. How is the soft Tory vote distributed? In Witney, for example, I imagine there are considerably more of the One Nation Tories than there were potential UKIPers, and the 19,000 reduction in votes was as much due to Tory voters staying away.
HesterThrale · 05/11/2016 18:22

In this bloggers's opinion, if Article 50 is debated in Parliament, it will go through, because:

"It is being said that, despite their consciences, most of the pro-EU parliamentarians will still vote for the bill, because they believe that it is “the will of the people” and that they must “respect the referendum result”. In other words, they intend to abdicate their duties of national leadership in favour of the entirely false concept of “the sovereignty of the people”. It is likely that they are being threatened by the party whips and by their constituency parties. It may be, as many people have suggested, that they have been frightened by threats of civil insurrection by Brexiters if they don’t get their own way. My answer to the last point is that our civilisation is lost anyway if elected representatives are cowering under threats from thuggish minorities."

He contends that we need to lobby our MPs and convince them they'd have popular support if they stuck to their principles.

remainvisual.co.uk/2016/11/05/britain-is-in-even-greater-danger-than-the-threat-of-brexit/

ToujeoQueen · 05/11/2016 18:23

Thanks for the new thread Red Wine

lalalonglegs · 05/11/2016 18:23

Blimey, Baron Faulks showed amazing prescience.

Thanks for the link to the Harry Bingham article, Hester.

I can't decide if we are overstating or not the importance of a politician's Brexit stance to many voters - in just the same way that we hear stories that people voted Leave because they don't think there are enough bin collections (or whatever), there's going to be an autumn statement and quite likely a budget before even an early election and who knows what people's minds will be focused on by then? There are so many popular papers that seem determined to make Brexit happen no matter what the cost that all sorts of smoke screens will be conjured up. So, for example, further austerity measures, if they are brought in, will in no way have anything to do with Brexit, you can be sure of that.

tiggytape · 05/11/2016 18:26

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tiggytape · 05/11/2016 18:27

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LurkingHusband · 05/11/2016 18:43

.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 18:57

Disgusting behaviour by L Truss, that quote from Faulks is astonishingly accurate. We are in the hands of weak, greedy and incompetent politicians. For the first time in my life I can say I'd prefer Thatcher!

squoosh · 05/11/2016 18:59

Truss is a lily livered weakling who has surely lost any credibility with those is the legal profession?

GloriaGaynor · 05/11/2016 19:02

I remember the criticisms at the time Truss was appointed. It's bleedin' obvious now why she was appointed.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 19:02

Hester thank you for that link. Brilliant, intelligence and humane piece. I'm place marking that blog!

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 19:08

She never had any credibility Squoosh. Since 2010 the lord chancellors have been terrible to Gove.

Unicornsarelovely · 05/11/2016 19:16

Sorry- gove was the best of the last 4 lord chancellors. That is not an overwhelming endorsement.

Thanks for the Harry Bingham blog. Fantastic.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 20:16

Richmond Park Labour candidate announced.

Hes an anti-Brexit transport expert who has written for the Independent before

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/labour-chooses-anti-brexit-transport-expert-zac-goldsmith-election/

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lalalonglegs · 05/11/2016 20:22

There's also an odd independent candidate running who used to be married to a Tory whip and has promised to join the Conservatives if she gets in Confused.

Cristian Wolmar writes a lot (or used to) for the Evening Std - he knows a lot about transport issues but doesn't seem a very natural fit for Richmond Park.