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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
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Ohchristmastreeohchristmastree · 11/11/2016 20:15

Yes - absolutely a peaceful protest all the way - I don't think I would have it in my mind to do anything else.

Bearbehind · 11/11/2016 20:23

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Ohchristmastreeohchristmastree · 11/11/2016 20:26

There are lots of comments on here about mocking Farage and how he wouldn't be able to organise any kind of demonstration. Please remember that a lot of people in the USA have just spent the last 6 months or so mocking and undersermating Trump and look where that got them!

winterisnigh · 11/11/2016 20:26

Perhaps the serious shit is you putting 2 and 2 together Bear and getting 10000.

TheBathroomSink · 11/11/2016 20:27

I think it will undoubtedly be nasty but I think it will be dominated by the far right groups without the acceptable public faces, because this is literally their stomping ground. It is not the natural home of shires Tory voters who want the 50s back, and it will be expensive for the Midlands/northern ex-Labour Ukippers - it's going to be a harder sell than getting them to go out and vote in their home town.

MagikarpetRide · 11/11/2016 20:28

Hahahaha I wouldn't trust Farage to be the responsible adult at a preschool party. Largely because most preschoolers tend to tell the truth more often than not.

winterisnigh · 11/11/2016 20:30

No please re hash your slur on the type of voter you think voted for Brexit Two fingers, but if there are special buses laid on and werthers I wont say no, I am partial to a werthers Smile

The bathroom I know what you mean and I cant even begin to imagine the sheer amount of people round trump now, however I do think he rather reveres Farage for what he did in the UK, its a huge upset, he said himself this is " brexit plus plus plus" and lets face it - Farage is the face of brexit...

Bearbehind · 11/11/2016 20:31

winchesterwoman / winterisnigh I don't know what your motive is but youre clearly only around to make trouble.

it won't be long before everyone sees through you.

winterisnigh · 11/11/2016 20:31

well if far left turn up - your guaranteed violence.

winterisnigh · 11/11/2016 20:32

Bear the only person I see at the moment making trouble is you - like I said you put 2 and 2 together and came up with a dog with spots.
Why are you persisting?

Peregrina · 11/11/2016 20:33

Agree Christmastree.

Farage's cronies managed to get the Brexit vote out, for people who don't normally vote, and won't bother to again, and truthfully weren't all that fussed either way about the EU.

But trotting out to vote doesn't usually require a lot of effort - polling stations are usually near where you live, and it takes a few minutes. Even then people can't be bothered. Getting organised to get a coach to London, marching in the cold and then standing and listening to speeches, getting the coach back etc. requires a bit more effort.

Whatever happens, the poor folks who follow Farage will be shafted big time by him. 100% sure of that. (Note that this is not saying that all Brexit voters are Farage supporters. There were thoughtful people voting for Brexit, thinking it would be for the best.)

Mistigri · 11/11/2016 20:39

If you think they are the same bear it's probably better just to report it, as presumably the mods can see IP addresses. I don't think engaging is very helpful tbh. It can be interesting to have a discussion with leavers who are genuinely open to debate (eg babybarrister on the lexiteers thread) but I cannot for the life of me see the point in engaging with the pub thread. Life is too short.

kaija I think for Farage's demo to be a success he and Banks will have to bus in a load of ex EDF and Britain First types, with the attendant risk of violence. The problem for him is that it's relatively easy to assemble a crowd of fervent remainers in central London, since you have a very large, young, mobile, strongly remain population on your doorstep. Less easy to assemble a large crowd of passionate leavers, because they may not live within easy travelling distance.

TheBathroomSink · 11/11/2016 20:41

I seriously don't see Trump revering Farage for anything. Possibly he should, because Farage managed to pull off Brexit (or at least a part of it - you still have to allow for Boris as a high profile Brexiter as well, Farage was not the only one) and does not have to take any responsibility for the outcome, whereas Trump now has ultimate responsibility for everything. In that sense, Farage actually did a better job than Trump.

amaravatti · 11/11/2016 20:44

And what do we do instead?
I thought myself of something like a candlelight vigil. I think we need to take note of peaceful protests from the past - e.g. those which brought Communism down, Ghandi's peaceful protests, the Czech passive resistance when the Russian tanks rolled in in 1966.

Farage's mob want opposition - they want a punch up. Farage of course, will dissociate himself from it. That type always do - fan the flames and then make sure they are nowhere near when the trouble erupt

Peregrina there are many ways to make an omelette( is that the right expression? ) I like your ideas. If the ANC and anti poll tax league, Greenham women, women for peace in Ireland, Southall Black Sisters managed to shift the world sideways, we can. We just needs to be canny. ( We will)

Bearbehind · 11/11/2016 20:44

misti, I do agree with you. I can't be bothered to report it because she'll dig her own grave but I am genuinely concerned about the lengths some people are going to to derail these discussions.

I'm taking a break from all this for a while because it's really getting me down that there are no answers and that there is so much smoke screening and brainwashing going on.

Keep up the good work you guys.

MagikarpetRide · 11/11/2016 20:50

BBC are reporting that Trump is already 'reconsidering' his pledge to completely repeal Obamacare.

Did he put that promise on a bus do we know?

merrymouse · 11/11/2016 20:51

desperate to who? if he is close friends with trump now, he is the natural conduit. He knows Trump, has worked with him, why on earth have someone else in the middle, it doesn't make sense. I imagine Trump admires Farage enormously. We can use this to our advantage of course.

I really don't think Farage and Trump are close. Farage just popped up on the campaign trail as a novelty English man and was so desperate to grab some reflected glory that he stuck with Trump even when Trump was in shit. Farage is good at grabbing the limelight, but despite having spent more than 2 decades in politics, he hasn't managed to get elected and UKIP's one MP openly despises him. Why would Trump need help from him? It's not as though Trump would have to go through Farage to talk to anyone in the UK, or as though there aren't people in Washington with more experience and better contacts.

The only skill Farage shares with Trump is the ability not to under estimate what the general public will fall for. However, that isn't such a useful skill when you aren't dealing with the general public.

amaravatti · 11/11/2016 20:51

Bearbehind
These tactics are as old as time. But right is right and I think this weird way of doing politics on type screens his affected our perception of that and treatment of each other.
have a good evening [flowers}Halo

Peregrina · 11/11/2016 20:54

there are many ways to make an omelette( is that the right expression? )

I had to think there. It's "there are many ways to skin a cat." i.e. more than one way of getting what you want. Don't ask me why, I would have to google for the answer.

And "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." which means to make something you have to destroy something else. Which was Gove's attitude to the EU, as far as I could tell. Trouble was, he couldn't tell us what he wanted to achieve. Bit like breaking eggs for the omelette and then deciding that you will cook a beef stew instead.

amaravatti · 11/11/2016 20:55

whoops,
Bearbehind, here are the Flowers !

TheBathroomSink · 11/11/2016 20:56

BBC are reporting that Trump is already 'reconsidering' his pledge to completely repeal Obamacare.

This is from an interview he gave to the Wall Street Journal, here. He also rowed back a bit on threatening to have Clinton locked up, apparently it isn't something he's given a lot of thought to.

I suspect we will hear that phrase more than once.

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 20:58

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking
Donald Trump says he is reconsidering his pledge to completely repeal #Obamacare, the Wall Street Journal reports

Trump tells WSJ - I would keep parts of Obamacare

tells WSJ - I would keep parts of Obamacare%26&nsfee=0#post58262d29e4b05d511bb32f2a

Posted at
20:43 In his first interview since the election, Donald Trump tells the Wall Street Journal that he may be willing to leave in place two key elements of President Obama's healthcare reform law.

^The provision allowing children to stay on their parents' healthcare plan until the age of 26, as well as the prohibition against insurers denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions may remain in place, he said.
“I like those very much,” Mr. Trump said about those two elements of the law, which he had previously vowed to "repeal and replace".^

OP posts:
Figmentofmyimagination · 11/11/2016 20:59

In a way, some serious violence may be what we need now, arising directly out of a Farage/ banks orchestrated demonstration - let's see the masks come off - like the Olympia stadium wake up call in 1934.

Peregrina · 11/11/2016 21:00

Trump 'reconsidering'. Ha! When will he realise that being President is a serious job?As the person said on Question Time, by the time Reagan came to Office, he had already served as a State Governor and gained political experience. So he wasn't just a B movie actor. Trump has done nothing of substance.

I suspect that there will be powers behind the throne who act instead of him.

Peregrina · 11/11/2016 21:04

In a way, some serious violence may be what we need now, arising directly out of a Farage/ banks orchestrated demonstration

As long as it's only Farage and Bank's thugs fighting among themselves and not other people getting hurt.