Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
autumnintheair · 05/11/2016 23:09

He says not a sausage about FoM from what I can see.

^
well how convenient when Frank Field made a mercy plea - for Birkenhead - vote leave for the poor.

I have read corybns particular type of politics would never want to take power, it would go agaisnt their values Grin so maybe this is a new move of his to make himself more un popular

StripeyMonkey1 · 05/11/2016 23:14

From The Independent:

Labour could block Article 50 over single market access concerns, Jeremy Corbyn says: 'We are not calling for a second referendum. We're calling for market access for British industry to Europe'

Labour will block the UK’s exit from the European Union if the Government is unable to guarantee access to the single market, Jeremy Corbyn has said.

The opposition will join forces with Tory Remain supporters and other parties to prevent Article 50 from being triggered if this trade access is not assured, the Labour leader told the Sunday Mirror.

Mr Corbyn suggested Prime Minister Theresa May, who has a slim Commons majority, would be forced into an early general election if she fails to meet Labour’s “Brexit bottom line”.

The Government is appealing a High court ruling ordering that Ms May must seek MPs’ approval to trigger Article 50.

Mr Corbyn said: "The court has thrown a big spanner in the works by saying Parliament must be consulted.

"We accept the result of the referendum. We are not challenging the referendum. We are not calling for a second referendum. We're calling for market access for British industry to Europe."

He added that in the event of a snap general election, the Labour party would be “ready for it”.

"If the Government calls an election, we're ready for it," he said. "We have the members, the organisation and the enthusiasm. We welcome the challenge.

"It would give us the chance to put before the British people an alternative economic strategy for this country."

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 23:17

access everyone has access... is he preparing the ground for something more substantial?

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 23:23

I dunno Red. It might just be a position that Labour MPs could get behind.

The MPs aren't the problem.

Its the electorate. He has a bit of ground to make up and some PR to do...

OP posts:
autumnintheair · 05/11/2016 23:27

. We're calling for market access for British industry to Europe'

I see of course no one else wants this Confused

autumnintheair · 05/11/2016 23:28

yes as a brexit voter jezza and his brexit voting crew do dont they Shock

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 23:40

Autumn stop claiming inside knowledge about Corbyn's vote. You simply don't know, do you?

Marmitelover55 · 05/11/2016 23:43

Well wow. Think this could actually be a turning point. Hope JC finally stepping up to the opposition mark..,

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2016 23:46

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/daily-mail
Alastair Campbell on Mr Dacre.

Cracking read. Love the bit about how reports of his father's death had been exaggerated.

(ooo and how the Mr hurts).

OP posts:
Mistigri · 06/11/2016 04:18

Everyone except sanctioned nations has "access" to the single market. It's the terms of that access that matter.

I'd like to think this was a turning point, but what he has said is meaningless. Even Liam Fox doesn't want the UK to have "no access" to the single market.

mathanxiety · 06/11/2016 04:38

So the chips are beginning to fall on either side of the really important issue - parliament v the government.

Faulk certainly had the measure of Theresa May.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 05:04

This also effectively allies Labour quite closely with soft Tory Brexiteers

I dont agree with this at all. Leaving the single market is not a "soft" brexit. No soft brexit is possible, within the allotted timescale, without at least a transitional period of being inside the SM but outside the EU.

I see absolutely no change in Labour's position here; if anything, there is a hardening of anti-FoM thought. I understand what Keir Starmer is trying to do but I am still disgusted with it. Let's not put too fine a point on it - he is lying to voters by suggesting unicorns are still on the menu (Corbyn is just misleading them because he probably doesn't understand the issues as well as Starmer).

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 05:07

And I'm an ex labour voter who has, in normal times, a lot of time for Starmer!

Fucking hell, the world has been turned on its head when I can honestly say there are Tories I would vote for ahead of the man who is quite likely the future leader of the Labour party.

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 08:04

Is it just Starmer who is saying unicorns are on the menu? Aren't they all, still?

MagikarpetRide · 06/11/2016 08:13

I may be getting the wrong impression here but is Corbyn essentially saying that he's fine with TM trying to negotiate a deal without FOM but that some sort of deal with akin to single marker is far more important than stopping FOM?

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 08:32

Is it just Starmer who is saying unicorns are on the menu? Aren't they all, still?

Pretty much all of them except, ironically, some of the Tory intelligentsia.

It's disappointing whoever says it, but it is enraging that someone as intelligent as Starmer feels he has to say it.

It's called lying and they need to grow some balls. I am furious.

Also cross about the Observer comment piece (I will link in a minute) which suggests that remainers are guilty of "extremism". It is not extremism to believe, as some do, that brexit may prove too complex to deliver (and to hope, privately, that this may prove to be the case). It is extremism to accuse judges of being enemies of the people and to beat up polish people.

To conflate the two is nothing short of disgusting.

Marmitelover55 · 06/11/2016 08:37

But isn't JC effectively saying ok to FOM as that is a given for access to the single market? Sorry if I'm being stupid.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 08:37

I may be getting the wrong impression here but is Corbyn essentially saying that he's fine with TM trying to negotiate a deal without FOM but that some sort of deal with akin to single marker is far more important than stopping FOM?

You are getting the wrong impression, because a cowardly Labour Party that does not want to call a spade a spade wants you to get the wrong impression.

Literally anyone can have "access" to the single market ie sell goods into the world's largest trade bloc. You don't even need a free trade agreement to do that.

It is emphatically not the same thing as being inside the single market.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 08:46

Sorry, no link from that Observer piece, as the grauniad's crappy site crashes my iPad (and the linky thing on the app doesn't work). But no one will have difficulty finding it.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/11/2016 09:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 09:31

Starmer has said we must let out membership of the single market 'lapse'.

And then gone on about access and needing to be in the customs union.

Liam Fox wants out of the customs union. For the most part not being in the custom union is the hardest bit about 'hard brexit'.

I agree that this talk of access to the single market is a red herring of sorts especially when FoM is taken into account. Its a none existent concept.

I do think its allying with Tory moderates more or less though, as the position, is about simply talking about it and because May refuses to rule out leaving the customs union. Though I do accept there are Tory Moderates who simply want full on Single market.

JC can not say anything about FoM without pissing off the north. But he can not say we will not have it because that pisses off the south. It definitely has splitters on his arse. But he has not said that it must stay, which in itself is a shift in his position as he was more for FoM and anti-Single Market and that seems to have reversed (though as other point out - not fully).

This IS something of a move towards the centre ground for this reason or at the very least a pitch for it at a time when May is trying to pitch more to the right.

OP posts:
prettybird · 06/11/2016 09:32

The sole Scottish Tory MP for Clydesdale, Tweeddale and Dumfriesshire would also be at risk: he had a majority of 798 Shock at the GE and the area voted something like 53% for Remain. Not as strong as some areas in Scotland - but enough to put a wafer thin majority at risk.

StripeyMonkey1 · 06/11/2016 09:48

It is a positive step for Corbyn to have said something.

It is also significant I think that he has emphasised access to the single market as a red line, rather than freedom of movement. That suggests that freedom of movement is a secondary consideration for him, and is consistent in that it reflects his previous view that he is not looking to reduce immigration to the UK.

It is very different from the government line, which is that freedom of movement is a key, if not the most important, consideration.

I agree that it does not go far enough and I think he should be more ambitious. Something like a commitment to require full unrestricted access to the single market would be better.

StripeyMonkey1 · 06/11/2016 09:55

^The MPs aren't the problem.

Its the electorate. He has a bit of ground to make up and some PR to do...^

He certainly does. But then the Conservatives would also face a considerable challenge from the Lib Dems in strong Remain constituencies. A Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition government must not be out of the question.

A good start would be for Corbyn to start showing a bit more backbone. The country needs something from Labour that it can get behind.

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 09:59

A Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition government must not be out of the question.

I wish. I would include moderate Tories too. Something must get us out of this mess, and it won't be May.